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Lowering springs ruining the car?

S

Stuart89

Messages
108
Hello,

I have done a lot of work to my car this week, fully polybushed front and back (castor adjusting), eibach pro lowering springs, camber bolts and camber arms. But I am not happy. The car before I did any work felt great, I enjoyed driving it fast and I was happy with it, so I expected great things from doing these mods and making it even better but it just isnt better and Im trying to work out why. I dont have the same confidence in the car, it bounces all over the place and I feel if I press on it will throw me off the road, I am not enjoying it.

Im looking at the lowering springs right now as the primary cause since the EP3 is not meant to be lowered in the first place, my front control arms are slightly above horizontal and the rear are horizontal. I could get the roll adjustment ball joints but the car will still jump all over the road.

Has anyone else felt something similar? It seems everyone is really happy with this sort of set-up and say its a huge difference, Im not feeling this difference if anything it feels worse. Im looking for opinions really before I fork out another £80 to get the car set up again with standard springs.

The set up right now is as follows:

+1° toe out at the front (both wheels, +2° total)
-1° negative camber front and back
-1° toe in at the back (both wheels, +2° total)

I live in wales and drive on mountain roads which could be the main reason I dont like these springs, but even on dual carrigeways the car doesnt feel amazing.

Stuart.
 
You won't need a rack raiser for Eibach springs.

My guess would be tired shocks on new springs causing the issue.
 
I've had similar issues with shocks after fitting Eibach Sportlines.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I had eibach springs on a fairly new fiesta st a few years back. It felt awful but looked good! I then invested in some gaz gold coilovers and it was unreal the difference! It was strange how different it was!

ive just bought an ep3 that has lowering springs on and doesn't feel too bad! But I'm going to go for coilovers when I can afford them!

id say loxy was bang on, tired shocks!
 
The EP3 is not designed to be lowered, anything over a 1" drop causes the handling to become much worse. The issues that I had are not shock related, it is a combination of typical lowering springs being rated too high and causing the car to hop and the fact the car shouldnt be lowered which caused the increased understeer. The EP3 has 5" of suspension travel as standard, chopping 1.5-2" off it with the sportline kit leaves you with 3" travel and a high rated spring.

Anyways I put the car back on the standard springs and I couldnt be happier, it became alive again the instant I drove it, flicking from left to right and holding its line through the corner. I cannot comment on whether or not the Pro-Kit would be better, it was a chance I was not prepared to take after already being sent the wrong springs once.

Thanks for the replies.
 
A car will only "hop" if the dampers are not up to the job so what you have said in "The issues that I had are not shock related" is in fact exact WHAT it is. Your right in the springs are to highly rated but only for the standard shocks. Run them with uprated dampers and they would have been an improvement over stock. The increased understeers is a mix of the poor damping (so the wheel is loosing contact with the road) and bump steer.
 
The lowering springs are designed to be used with the standard shocks so the fact that the combination doesnt work still relates to it being the springs fault, reducing the travel by 2" and increasing the spring rate over standard creates a lot of a wheel hop. The understeer has nothing to do with the damping either, study the geometry of the EP3 and you still quickly realise that from an engineering point of view it should not be lowered. The understeer is caused by the lower control arms being angled incorrectly and allowing the car to send cornering forces through its suspension rather than directing the forces through the chassis so the harder you corner the more that car will dive on that corner. This is the exact reason that buddy club make roll centre adjusters, to put the lower control arms back at the correct angle.

You are right that the damping should be changed with spring rates but on this particular car, anything that lowers it removes cornering performance.
 
Was thinking about the pro kit. Don't think I will bother now. Is booked in for Friday with TGM for FRSU with original springs
 
KrystenCTR said:
Have a look at this website...

http://honda-tech.com/acura-rsx-dc5...on-tuning-basics-faqs-told-mustclime-2639666/
Click to expand...

Yes that is where I got most of my information from regarding the topic.

You can also hear the same result from Honda tuning company Spoon's owner in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TapkhD6WHjM&list=FLHds5J9O0WqcBfdSrYkttpw&index=4

2:25 - Civic introduction.
13:45 - Conclusions on the cars
15:20 - Specific explanation of the problem. If you only watch one, watch this one.
 
Read that thread. He advises setting up the suspension at 6.5 inches (16cm) to the jacking points. My FD2 was 15.5cm front and 19.5cm rear at one point IIRC and that looked bloody low TBH.

I would be interested to hear what a stock CTR measures.

I wouldn't take the measurements in general in that thread as gospel by the way. I'm pretty sure that bit about 5 inches of travel is plucked out of the air as an example in the point he was making. If you add everything up he says, eg no lower than .7 inch, so that on 6.5 inch must make 7.2 inch and 5 inch of travel means 2.2 inches to the jacking points on the bump stops? No, sorry I don't buy that.

Tired shocks on new springs. The guru even says it himself in one of the links about a car bouncing on the freeway.
 
Those measurements are close to the stock CTR, I really dont know why you refuse to accept this, all the evidence and engineering are telling you not to lower this car. It is not shock related on my car, its back at standard height and handles spot on again.

Engineers designed the car, listen to engineers when tuning it.
 
:lol:

He's not an engineer any more than I am, so I guess that doesn't disprove a whole tuning community either.

Cars are made within spec for a majority of users who want this attribute or that attribute. It's proven time and time again that you can make improvements over standard cars with modifications with the sacrifice of one attribute or another. In your case though, a poor ride shouldn't and for a vast vast majority, isn't one of those sacrifices.
 
I am an Engineer.

This is not about a poor ride but a compromised one, it is not an opinion that it drives worse, it actually does drive worse. This is down to the design of the suspension and steering rack of both the EP3 and the DC5. I am not saying that lowering cars doesnt make them faster, but on these 2 specific cars it will absolutely not make them faster because of the design. You could fit better suspension and as long as the car maintained its standard ride height you will improve the handling.

I will leave you something else to think about, why have companies made roll centre adjusters and steering rack raisers for the EP3 but not for other cars?
 
Technically I am, it's in my job title but there are many engineers in the world, and I am not and will never claim to be a mechanical engineer. (Though I was better than my ex at her degree in Mech Eng than she was at the time...)

For cars that go lower than a set of Eibach springs will take it, i.e. on coilovers when you don't want to put undue stress on the push rods with them sitting at a dodgy angle, then yeah why not throw on a rack raiser.

Put your engineering brain back in and think does a steering rack raiser do anything to the angle of the LCA?

Hmmm.

Now go back to you bouncing all over the place. Your LCAs being past horizontal, do you think that has any affect on how the spring and damper react? I can fully appreciate lateral forces will be transmitted differently into the subframe, but perpendicular to the road? No, they are just going to move up and down exactly as the do with OEM springs. The bouncing you mention is due to the damping not being up to the task of suppressing the higher spring rate. OEM springs, with a lower spring rate and yep they sit right at home and can do their job for another (insert number here) miles.

I think you and your chap in the states are pretty much on your own on this one.

You've had a bad experience, I get that, but I can't see how you can even contemplate that putting OEM springs back on a car with well worn shocks proves your point, it simply doesn't. What you had was a mis-match of fresh, stiffer springs and tired dampers.

I had it myself on the FN2 but it manifested itself in excess travel. Old dampers on new springs and the damping was all wrong which meant in the right circumstances, dips at speed or prolonged hard cornering meeting a bump, I could rub the tyres on the arch liners. The springs even went back to Eibach for testing and were found to be within their tolerances, so new shocks went on the car and low and behold, problem solved.

Anyway, you enjoy your suspension the way Honda rolled it off the line albeit with some miles on it. Others will mod and enjoy theirs, and a vast majority who read this in the future will agree with me that a set of Eibach springs does not an EP3 ruin. Hell, Spoon springs for the DC5 are rebranded Eibachs, fit that into the Spoon video!
 
Loxy said:
Technically I am, it's in my job title but there are many engineers in the world, and I am not and will never claim to be a mechanical engineer. (Though I was better than my ex at her degree in Mech Eng than she was at the time...)

For cars that go lower than a set of Eibach springs will take it, i.e. on coilovers when you don't want to put undue stress on the push rods with them sitting at a dodgy angle, then yeah why not throw on a rack raiser.

Put your engineering brain back in and think does a steering rack raiser do anything to the angle of the LCA?

Hmmm.

Now go back to you bouncing all over the place. Your LCAs being past horizontal, do you think that has any affect on how the spring and damper react? I can fully appreciate lateral forces will be transmitted differently into the subframe, but perpendicular to the road? No, they are just going to move up and down exactly as the do with OEM springs. The bouncing you mention is due to the damping not being up to the task of suppressing the higher spring rate. OEM springs, with a lower spring rate and yep they sit right at home and can do their job for another (insert number here) miles.

I think you and your chap in the states are pretty much on your own on this one.

You've had a bad experience, I get that, but I can't see how you can even contemplate that putting OEM springs back on a car with well worn shocks proves your point, it simply doesn't. What you had was a mis-match of fresh, stiffer springs and tired dampers.

I had it myself on the FN2 but it manifested itself in excess travel. Old dampers on new springs and the damping was all wrong which meant in the right circumstances, dips at speed or prolonged hard cornering meeting a bump, I could rub the tyres on the arch liners. The springs even went back to Eibach for testing and were found to be within their tolerances, so new shocks went on the car and low and behold, problem solved.

Anyway, you enjoy your suspension the way Honda rolled it off the line albeit with some miles on it. Others will mod and enjoy theirs, and a vast majority who read this in the future will agree with me that a set of Eibach springs does not an EP3 ruin. Hell, Spoon springs for the DC5 are rebranded Eibachs, fit that into the Spoon video!
Click to expand...

There seems to be a consistent misunderstanding that has followed all your posts which I should have cleared up earlier in the thread. You are right that the lowering spring spring rates are way too high for the standard damper and is the reason the ride is crashy and unstable, worn dampers will increase this effect. Which is the reason lowering springs in general are not a good idea.

However my car displayed more issues than this which is why we are debating from two different stand points, I did have a dangerously crashy ride but also very noticeable understeer which I would reach earlier than standard and the more I pushed in the worse it got, but very gradually and not like standard. It was also bad under direction change when flicking between corners where the understeer would appear almost unexpectedly. These factors are related to the LCA's.

The engineering hat never comes off sadly, the steering rack risers do not affect the LCA angle and I didn't suggest they did, my point was that lowering the car will also make the steering rack work at bad angles and need adjusting as well putting further proof into the mix that you shouldn't lower the car.

Your FN2 has a different design and does not suffer the same issues as the EP3 and DC5.

Regsrding the spoon springs, let's remember that these tuning companies are businesses that need to make money, if people want to lower the EP3 they sell a product for it, whether it improves performance or not. Look no further than Eibach to see this in action where they have two product lines of lowering springs, the performance orientated Pro-Kit which ironically, doesn't lower the car much and the style orientated sport kit that just gives the maximum drop you can get away with, with no regards to performance. It should also be noted that Eibach do not make lowering springs for the Type-R, the ones everyone are buying are for the civic sport, I wonder why.
 
Looking into the Pro Kit, do you think i can get away with this? Its a 15mm drop...i currently have the ABP Eibachs with a FRSU and it handles well, but the car is bumpy and crashy a bit! and id like a bit extra ride height for practical reasons!
 
JackEP3Premier said:
Looking into the Pro Kit, do you think i can get away with this? Its a 15mm drop...i currently have the ABP Eibachs with a FRSU and it handles well, but the car is bumpy and crashy a bit! and id like a bit extra ride height for practical reasons!
Click to expand...

Hey,

You will get away with it, pro-kit gives 25mm/15mm drop for a type s, type r is already 20mm lower from the factory so the drop is only around 5mm. The are progressive which is not what you want but it shouldn't be a problem. I think you will be amazed how much better it will handle over your current springs. I wouldn't bother getting another frsu either but it's up to you, from sport line springs to standard springs my geometry did not change much.
 
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