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New to hondas, rattling on 04 CTR, timing chain was recently done? HELP PLEASE

B

binjoau

Messages
7
Hey all,

recently moved back to the UK after the last 8 years in Canada. Had some pretty fun cars over there including a fully built WRX that made 626hp on the dyno :) and a pretty fun turbo Forester.





Sadly though given fuel and insurance prices in the UK I knew that it was time for a change.........





This is my first non Subaru, I have always had a soft spot for the ep3 CTR since they first arrived on the seen all those years ago. I purchased our Cosmic Grey 04 CTR with 77k on the clock, FSH, all records and zero MOT advisories. The car exterior wise is excellent, it was actually plasti dipped blue at one stage in its life which really did save the original paint. Maybe someone on here knows this car, cannot of been too many blue ones around? The interior except for the steering wheel and storage tray under the radio is truly immaculate, (I have since purchased replacements for these issues). The wheels have also been refurbished in anthracite, brakes painted red and it was de-badged. Although normally I like a fully de-badged car I have purchased and fitted oem decals and badges again to make it as perfect as can be. All in all a great car it seems!

Anyway... on to my issue:

Every morning when I start the car there is a faint rattling sound that can be heard. This tends to go away as the car warms up but if revving and engaging the clutch about 2k rpm the rattling sound can be heard again. It most certainly sounds like a chain type rattle and not a heat shield sound. (I have worked on lots of cars now so recognise the difference). The oil is topped up fully and there are no obvious external causes for this sound. According to the service history (book with stamp but no actual receipt) the timing chain was done at 68k. Is it possible this rattle could be from a premature failing tensioner or perhaps the more uncommon VTEC cam gear? The car runs great, no smoke, hesitations, VTEC is strong etc.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, if it was a Subaru I would know where to start! Looking forward to enjoying Hondas as much as I did the six star brand!

cheers,

Alex
 
Yes it could be both of what you mentioned. Also depending what went on with the chain before it was replaced, the guides could be in a poor state and might not have been replaced.

Check it's not the I-VTEC cover that's on top of the inlet manifold rattling first, then bite the bullet and get it looked at.
 
Ok,

so an update:

PART 1:

took the car into the dealer and had the valve clearances done, they were very loose but this did not fix the problem. I have found that the rattle is in the head and only at 1500-1600rpm. There are no loose heat shields, vtec cover has been spaced, compression test and all cylinders are 175 + / - 10%, checked inside cylinders and no heavy scoring etc.

The rattle has not gotten worse or better at all, the reason I believed it was cold start related was because the idle rpm hovers around this rev range causing the rattle to appear. It is not actually related to the engine being hot or cold.

I have replaced the TCT with a new one as a precautionary measure and the timing chain etc seems to be in good condition. The timing is spot on and I confirmed with the garage who did the work (as the previous owner stated) that it was completed.

This noise is a bit of a mystery?? Any other ideas would be great, only thing I can think of is the vtc is rattling however unplugging the vtec solenoid whilst the rattle occurs has no effect. I read in another persons thread this helped to lead to a diagnosis. I have searched and searched and searched for this online with no success!

PART 2:

The car has also recently developed a rotational noise at idle that increases with rpm, it is mostly heard directly above the I vtec cover but does not go if the drive belt of v tec cover are removed. I have used a mechs stethoscope and it sounds as if it is coming from the intake manifold itself. The only way to describe it is a medium pitch "wuh wuh wuh" sound, almost as if something if pulsating or rotating. Is there anything within the manifold that could cause this?

Really need the help!


thanks
 
The water pump breather is at the right hand side of the intake manifold as you look at it.
 
Loxy said:
The water pump breather is at the right hand side of the intake manifold as you look at it.
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply, can I detach that whilst the car is running to see if the noise changes? The waterpump on the car is on the way out anyway and I have ordered another but if the noise is gone whilst the belt is removed that should rule it out?
 
You would have thought if the pump wasn't moving then it wouldn't be present to be fair.

Yes, you can disconnect the pipe from the from the top, it's only an air breather/vent.
 
At this point I'm really stumped and open to any and all suggestions! The noise is 100% engine speed related, it can be heard clearly from the drivers seat but oddly when under the bonnet it's only present above the vtec cover area, as if the sound were resonating through the intake manifold itself
 
I have a ticking mechanical noise which I have taken to Honda(twice) and TDI PLC and both have said its just noisy injectors and that there's no worries and nothing to replace.

Obviously though Loxy and others in here know loads more than me... Just thought id put my bit in! :smt004
 
I appreciate your input, the noise really only appears at 1500 rpm, it's not injector tick, I'm sure of that. The first noise is somewhere within the head.

The second noise is bizarre, it could be echoing through the intake mani but there is an oscillating sound for sure. No difference with clutch in or out so that rules out gearbox.
 
Check my thread on "Sounds like cereal" within faults and servicing. May help you out a bit, had similar issues.
 
BushyBaws said:
Check my thread on "Sounds like cereal" within faults and servicing. May help you out a bit, had similar issues.
Click to expand...

Sadly that doesn't sound like my problem.

Now I've developed another noise! Sounds like a bearing is dry but appears to be going with the engine speed, the noise is located around the pulleys of perhaps by the timing chain cover. I have just discovered that the bolt that holds in the spool valve is loose! It must be hanging on by a few threads and it wedged. I can't do it up right now either as I don't have any of my tools nearby!

This cars really starting to **** me off!
 
Welcome to the forum ;)

The guys/girls on here are fantastic with helping a lot. I can't thank them enough for the wealth of knowledge from forum members over the short period I have been a member.

Dry bearing does not sound good, my bearings were knackered, right down to the brass to be precise. Knocking bottom end the lot, unfortunately for me mine needed a full bottom end rebuild and I just got her back on Tuesday there. Including new crank and clutch, plus a new timing chain, guide and tensioner not long ago either. But...She is running sweet now and the way a CTR should do.

Do hope you have the patience to get your car fixed as it will be worth it in the long haul as it has been proven to me after a month of constant issues. :)
 
BushyBaws said:
Welcome to the forum


The guys/girls on here are fantastic with helping a lot. I can't thank them enough for the wealth of knowledge from forum members over the short period I have been a member.


Dry bearing does not sound good, my bearings were knackered, right down to the brass to be precise. Knocking bottom end the lot, unfortunately for me mine needed a full bottom end rebuild and I just got her back on Tuesday there. Including new crank and clutch, plus a new timing chain, guide and tensioner not long ago either. But...She is running sweet now and the way a CTR should do.


Do hope you have the patience to get your car fixed as it will be worth it in the long haul as it has been proven to me after a month of constant issues.
Click to expand...


So after driving to where my tools are located I found the bolt is actually not loose, it is just the wrong bolt! That means the garage that did the chain replacement hasn't put the case bolts back in the correct positions. A little bit worrying as god knows how they actually put the car back together. Im
ordering the correct bolt today so hopefully that will be sorted.


As for the new noise I managed to get the belt off and the noise totally disappears, the water pump does have some play in it and as the 2 pulleys are brand new I have to assume the water pump is causing the noise. I have ordered one already so will swap that out tonight or tomorrow.


I noticed that that the oscillating / pulsing sound appears shortly after I had the valve clearances done, do you think this could possibly be a relation? Could the clearances of been adjusted too tight? I'm almost positive that this noise and the rattle at 1500rpm are not the bottom end, I've blown up 2 Subaru engines in my quest for big power and know the death rattle all too well. Plus the rattle has been present for over 10,000 miles with no change.


thanks for all your help so far guys, the car is in great shape and so fun to drive just struggling to have confidence in it at the moment
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would've thought that if the clearances weren't done correctly, you would know so.

Only other thing i'm thinking it could be is either heatshields (check exhaust manifold one, driveshaft, cat and back end of exhaust for looseness on those covers, rocker cover not tightened or worst case scenario, I have heard of the VTC cam gear going. But this usually causes a rattle on cold start or sometimes when driving at a certain rpm.

As for the bottom end, I've been there...if you check my build thread in the members section I've just had my full bottom end rebuilt from the ground up. Sounded like a bag of spanners along with someone chapping at my head finally ending in a "bleeeeughhhhh" haha
 
What a nightmare, nothing worse that mystery noises.

I'd imagine that the rotational noise is connected to the water pump if it's dying.

The rattle noise is a hard one. As Bushy said, check all the heatshields. I had something very similar and it turned out to be a driveshaft heatshield. They are awful on these cars, cheap metal in places you don't want cheap metal, pretty big oversight on Honda's part. You may as well rip them all off anyway and save yourself some heartache later on.

It could also be a bad chain/tensioner/guide as you initially thought. The market is flooded with copies, even the 'genuine Honda' parts sold by Tegiwa are noticeably different to parts supplied by Honda. I've heard some horror stories about these parts failing after only a couple of thousand miles and doing major damage to the engine. It does sound in this instance that it has been done cheaply (wrong bolt WTF?), so I'd get it to a good garage and have them examine it closely.
 
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