BC Racing BR Damper Kit EP3

[dotty]

Interesting reading :smt023

 

[Bazza]

Firstly thanks for the educated, well thought our reply rather than the generic "you fail" reply that seems all too common on forums now:lol:

Secondly, this thread is about BC. Not Meister R. Can't help thinking you are using this to promote your brand.:lol: (can't blame you for trying!)

Mass Production Failure: I understand if you have a product that are more expensive, you can spend more money in R&D, QC, and so on. But that doesn't make a product fail proof. A few O-rings failed and brought down the Challenger Space Shuttle, just because you have unlimited budget and QC, it still doesn't make something is fail proof.

One of the major causes for any failure in any product is changing specification of materials or components. Any manufacturing facility that is both ISO9001 and ISO14001 accredited would have a thorough paper trail of all components used in any product. I've seen my fair share of manufacturing plants in China and Taiwan. And one in 10 is "acceptable" and the other 9 are just shocking. From this first hand experience I know I wouldn't use anything on my car (road or track) that is made there.

However, from first hand experience with Japanese manufacturing and knowing their ethos and ethics I would certainly put more trust in their products. Even if its more cost. Its a country not run by the red where staff live at the manufacturing plants in shitty dorms eating 3 barely square meals a day and hanging their clothes out to dry from their barred windows. I **** you not:lol:

Challenger Space Shuttle is a bit more complex than a set of coilovers but I do see your point. However, the only real place to test the Challenger was in situ. Not in a QC lab:lol: But on the other end of the spectrum what would be the point in QC at all if something is likely to fail anyway?

The point in QC is not only to stop glaring errors but also work on procedures during manufacturing to stop defects earlier down the product line and reduce the chance of failure. Its also to carry out thorough tests pre-manufacturing run. Again, R+D.

Granted my background in QC is in bathroom products but the most simple things can reduce both rejection rate at point of manufacture as well as returns (which does ultimately lead to a reduction in customer confidence) at the POS.

Bottom line is cheap QC, cheap company costs usually mean cheap inferior product. As my old saying goes, you can't make a birthday cake out of dog ****. If you do, its just a turd with a candle in it.

Pedigree: It takes time to build a "pedigree", and I understand that many looks for that. So far MeisterR have been doing well and have proven itself as a great products, but this is something that takes time.

Yes it does. But by selling something very cheap it leaves you no % to spend on actual "in situ" R+D. e.g - Racing.

My point from the previous thread is that a large % of the market doesn't care about this. They want coilovers because Dave down the pub has them and they're "phat". They don't really understand the benefits above "how low does it go?".

This mentality used to be found on 106 forums etc. But im seeing it more and more on DC2, EK9 forums etc.

Material: I would say in terms of "Raw" material, most good coilovers are about the same. Most use T6061 aluminum and strengthen steel. Things that different are pillowball bearing, piston design, damper coating, etc. Things that are different is what differentiate one brand to the another. But just as we are all roughly worth $8.00 in raw material if we break our own body down, coilovers are all worth roughly the same as scrape metal if you know what I mean.

Yes. But another aspect to getting the end result from "scrap" as you put it is manufacturing processes and workmanship.:lol:

MeisterR Zeta-R Straight Steering Arm Design: I cannot tell you if any other manufacturer research this arm or not. What I can say is that Tein/Zeal/JIC/Ohlins know that this is an issue, and they didn't do anything about it. If this is not a problem, why would company like J's Racing/Spoon Sport make an inverted track rod kit to bring the track rod back to standard height on lowered car? All MeisterR done was see that an issue exist, decide to do something about it, and provide a solution to the consumers. This isn't a PERFECT solution as you cannot adjust the track rod end to the center every time, but it is still closer than what the standard V-shape steering arm would be. Alot of manufacturer didn't want to "deviate" from the standard suspension design, other simply purchase new steering arm from Honda instead of making a new mold and design. We simply think outside of the box and made a solution that will fit people's need.

Again see my comment above about the average Joe simply not caring.
What you are saying does make sense but there are always 2 sides to the story and from what you posted there it seems to be they didn't want to change from the OE design.

Steel Bracket: For me, durability is more important than all out performance. MeisterR Zeta-R are design to be compliant for fast road use, so that has always been our focus. If we are making some race coilovers that will only need to last 1 season at most, then possibility weight saving will be more of a concerns. However, I will still choose steel over aluminum because my concern isn't about winning or loosing a race, my concern is about safety. If you loose the race, you can race again next time. If you loose your wheel because the suspension bracket shattered at the end of a main straight, you may not race again.

Thats fine if you statistics for failure rates on Aluminium vs Steel in a race environment.

Same as the original comment about the Mazda owner with the serious failure under road use (albeit the guy had it set to the hardest setting - FAIL).

R&D: Aside from the technical side of R&D, there is also specficiation (Spring Rate, Damper Rate, Damper Stroke Travel, etc).

MeisterR does do R&D and design coilovers to suit the UK Roads. What you have to understand is that factory do not "adjust" their products for everywhere in the world. They normally make ONE product, and the specification is based on their biggest market (AKA America ).

Tein is made for the Japanese market. The spring rates on the JDM Tein are designed for said market. Same for Ohlins, JIC etc. I would say most coilovers I've experienced aren't really that great on UK roads (well, not Yorkshire anyway). Im not sure if UK Tein has different spring rates?

My NSX-R was terrible on b-roads up here. I would have been quicker in my EK9. But then again, the NSX-R wasn't really designed for UK road use. The same goes for a coilover.

I hope this give a little more insight to what MeisterR do.
Not every £600 coilovers in the market are off the shelf, cheaply made, with a different sticker.

Granted. But if you had 2 manufacturing facilities and a product lineup like a phonebook could you continue selling them for £600?

Many high end coilovers are also not suitable for road use because they are design as a race product.
Many expensive JDM coilovers such as CRUX/SHOWA are designed for race use... and that is what they do. If you take these coilovers, put it on a road car, and drive though the UK country road... I am pretty sure you won't get much traction as your car will be skipping all over the place. Just like the MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers won't work well on a fully strip out competition race car running on slicks because the damper valving isn't hard enough to push the tyres on the ground.

Agreed. But really, is there much point tuning a car for road use with coilovers? Are progressive springs not a more economical and logical choice? My DC5 one Tanabe GF springs was far more enjoyable than on coilovers. But the DC5 on track (track I mean, not a dirty air field with cones) with coilovers felt far more at home.

The MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers are designed to give compliant handling for fast road and occasional track days.
It is about giving more "confidence" to the driver and getting more "enjoyment" out of your car.
We all spend our hard earn money on what we feel we need, but the most expensive isn't necessary be the best solution to suit our need.

I wasn't suggesting you need to spend £1500 in order to get more out of your car. My point again is that why spend £550 on a set of coilovers that are "ok" with very little testing and proven results?

D2 was the same back in 2003. So many friends bought into it and ended up paying the consequences. When spending just £400 more could have got Tein?

I wish you all the luck in the world. I really do. Motorsport in the UK is dying because of our fascist government making it so hard to run a business here and the fact that you can MOVE next to a race circuit then complain about the noise.

My closing 2p is brand image is not just about being flash its about inspiring the customer with confidence. If a customer doesn't respect the brand for spending on R+D and doing things properly because they'd rather buy from a cheap company with no pedigree (Fujitsubo have been making exhausts since 1931 vs some of the **** UK **** that looks like bird **** welds and Stevie Wonder QC) that positions itself solely on price then this industry is struggling more than I thought.

I know the next set of coilovers I buy will be Ohlins (FD3S RX7). I trust Ohlins to produce a fantastic quality coilover and improve my enjoyment of my car on track and on occasional fast road use.

My needs to be suited are not cheap as possible. My needs are to know I am buying something safe, durable, reliable and enjoyable.

I fear the market is now destroyed by people that want cheap and "how low can i go?".

Cheers

 

[MeisterR]

Again Bazza, I like to thank you for your thought as it all helps in the future.
I feel that being part of a community, taking part in it, and using the feedback is the only way to advance a company/products.

Racing for me is a Marketing Tool, my main concerns is the average Joe who by the MeisterR Coilovers will be happy with what they paid their hard earn cash for.

Second, agreed about this thread is about BC Coilovers... Don't even know how it jumped over to a MeisterR Coilovers discussion so if we want to discuss more, lets open a new thread. :lol:

I think both of us have a pretty good understanding of each other, and most of what you said I can whole heartedly agree with.

One thing I have to say is that just because a set of coilovers carry a cheaper price, it doesn't necessary mean it is inferior in any way, shape, or form. I can easily market the MeisterR Coilovers at £1000, but no one will buy it because it takes time to build a "brand equity". Perceive value is actually quite expensive.

I personally feel that "value" is the key to a successful product. If you pay attention to the customer's needs, pay attention to the details, and provide value for their money, then you have a great product. It 100% NEVER the cheapest, but not necessary the most expensive either.

MeisterR design the Zeta-R coilovers for customers looking for compliant and stable handling on UK Fast Roads, and occasional track days. That has been the core of the design and most customers have been very happy with the end result. We have done a lot of testing and now have proven result from our customers, but it doesn't mean we should raise our price higher just because we now build a name... Its still the same price.

Regarding the straight steering arm of the MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers for the EP3 / DC5; as you said, the average Joe won't care. However, if it is the same price as other design on the market, then it is an added "value". And that is probably what I am trying to give the most... Pay attention to the details as it makes a difference in the end.

A lot of people think that "coilovers" are race use only, or will be very harsh. I feel that is a stigma that was attached to them because of JDM coilovers and harshly valved dampers. These manufacturer simply made a product and did not listen to what their customers want; or the customers have no clue and purchased the wrong product for their need. I like having a nice compliant coilovers on a road car because most coilovers use linear rate springs. Dual Perch Coilovers like MeisterR allows you to set the ride height, and retain good damper travel... this makes for a very good road suspension setup. I like the way that car transfer the weight smoothly at the exit of a corner, instead of wallowing (a characteristic of progressive springs)... it inspire me with more confidence. This isn't to get a fast time down my local country road, it is just it let me "enjoy" my car more and it is a personal preference.

Final note:
1. Agree 100% with the noise regulation. If you move to a house next to a race track, you think they might think about noise before hand! It is truly a sad scenario that you cannot even pay to do what you enjoy in a safe and legal environment anymore!

2. Good choice on the Ohlins! I don't rate TEIN very high myself, simply because I have seen quite a few of their products and I just don't think they justify the price they charge for what they provide... back to "value" again. But Ohlins on the other hand I HIGHLY RATE, and I really think you will have a hard time finding a better "value" coilovers at that market segment. When it comes to high end suspension manufacturers (which will NOT be in the same segment as MeisterR), my favorite are Ohlins then Nitron; sadly they are not in most people's budget

Anyways, that is my 2p... Cheers for listening.

And if anyone got any questions I can help, please feel free to let me know.

 

[newannaive]

wow, lot of words there. Everyone seems to want coilovers to last 18months+ and until then we can't judge them....

How many sets of teins fail in that time..? a very lot. Top of the range teins failing within a few thousand miles. Do a googlie on superstreet, masterflex or type flex, it makes for shocking reading.

Name me a brand of coilovers that will last this amount of time on the roads, every set they sell. I'm not sure I would want a 2yr old set of anything on my car, I'd rather have the BC Racing kit on than a very expensive, but 2 yr old, kit.

 

[Bazza]

wow, lot of words there. Everyone seems to want coilovers to last 18months+ and until then we can't judge them....

How many sets of teins fail in that time..? a very lot. Top of the range teins failing within a few thousand miles. Do a googlie on superstreet, masterflex or type flex, it makes for shocking reading.

Name me a brand of coilovers that will last this amount of time on the roads, every set they sell. I'm not sure I would want a 2yr old set of anything on my car, I'd rather have the BC Racing kit on than a very expensive, but 2 yr old, kit.

How can anyone stick ANY coilover that is unproven, do 100 miles then post a review "OMFGz u needz dez coloverz"? Which seems to have been the common case on many forums with BC, and D2 before that. Now almost a year on there are more and more failures cases.

As I said, pretty much any coilover being fitted to a 50,000 mile 6 year old car is going to feel great.

It was more what are they like in 12-18 months? Corrosion? Seals? Geometry that was set staying the same? The list goes on of things that I would consider as important over just the price. I know that buy buying Ohlins I am buying from a company with morals and ethics that have been around the suspension game for years. Ask any hardcore biker what they think of Ohlins. And there would be no doubt in your mind that you are buying a proper product.

I would NEVER buy used suspension but there are people that would just to save money. Just the same as the people that buy the fake Bride Kevlar seats because "they look the same and some Taiwanese company will ship them to me for 300 USD each. Im not paying £1000 per seat".

Saving that £700 over buying the real thing that has been thoroughly tested could mean the difference between eating through straws for the rest of your life because the seat shattered on impact in an accident thus crippling you and / or your passenger. Nice! £700 in the bank though.. May help towards a nice wheelchair. You would have been better off with an OEM seat.

I've run Tein on 3 of my cars over the past 4 years and NEVER had any issue. Granted, most of that driving was on track with probably no more than 20,000 miles covered over that 4 year period. With hundreds of Tein Ring laps completed and no issues at all (thats a lot of curbs being hit at over 100 mph) what conclusion am I to draw?

The G-Force I had (same as D2) back in 2004 on my Evo MR was just rubbish. I did one Ring trip and put the Bilstein back on. I tried numerous settings and it was just ****.

I think sometimes people want to "mod (hate that word!)" to satisfy some kind of urge or to impress people on the internetz. No real idea of what they are changing and the side affects of fitting these parts. The internet is a great resource for finding information and doing research into a brand or a particular product. But with so much rubbish getting posted on forums about products (this exhaust gives 1bhp more therefore it is better BS) its hard to see the fact through the rubbish.

Love the "I've seen this 500 dollar ebay K20 turbo kit, what do you think?" threads on so many Honda forums now:lol:

Regading Tein failing. I can only go off my experience and the experience of people I know that have used Tein. There are so many installation factors that could lead to failures and of course misuse etc. The same goes for the Mazda forum post tbh. But Tein have always stood behind their products with warranty and after care:

http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/lifespan-tein-coilovers-469302/

Strange, im googling "Tein FAIL" and not getting much?
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=tein fail&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

But..

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/off-topic/177728-why-bc-coilovers-suck-lol-3.html
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=D2+coilover+fail&aq=f&oq=&start=0
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=BC+coilover+fail&aq=f&oq=&start=0
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=268574&highlight=BC+Coilover
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=291388&highlight=BC+Coilover
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87946

and even a comment by our very own HARV: http://www.lancerregister.com/showpost.php?p=3028128&postcount=21

..but by selling at a higher price gives them the margin they need to offer this type of care and service. Service is ALWAYS a byproduct of margin. No margin means **** service. As there is no % left in the kitty to have

a) the staff
b) the stock holdings
c) the cash to cover returns for warranty claims

This is what this industry needs to understand before all the good companies shut or sell up and you are left with 10 kids in 10 bedrooms undercutting each other. All struggling in vain to get that extra edge (tax dodging is always a good way of getting that extra few %) or getting ya mate to ship stuff from Japan as a gift. Love that one. Not only is the guy in Japan committed a federal offence you are defrauding HMRC which can even land you a huge fine and a record. Nice one! You saved £100 on the tax on your GruppeM. But now have a criminal record for fraud.:lol:

This also is relevant to Meister-R. Again, if you had to develop enough products to fill the yellow pages, supporting over 250 cars with springs (2-3 types), coilovers (4-5 types), strut braces etc could you continue selling for £600-£700 a set? Having 2 manufacturing plants and over 500 dealers worldwide? No you couldn't. The staffing required alone would mean your overheads go up (and the UK average wage ain't cheap! especially when compared to Taiwan or China) along with premises, insurances etc. The list goes on and on.

I hope that BC do research these problems and come up with fixes and continue selling at £700 a set retail (remember that this price is high compared to what the price would have been in Dec 2007 when Tein Mono Flex was under a grand and SS was around £600 - USD is up over 20% against the £).

The internet can make or break you even if it is just half stories and hate campaigns (type Rota fail in google) but bottom line is spending £700 on something with a relatively high failure rate vs £1200 on something that "may" fail but has a strong brand and a history of support should be a no brainer.

If a higher % go for the cheap it just reinforces what I've been saying about the JDM scene in the UK for some time now. Toilet + down = FAIL. Where price is the number 1 factor in buying a product.

A wheel is a wheel right? No.
Why buy a forged monoblock wheel when you can have cheap cast copies for £500 a set. That need half a tonne of weights to balance them out. Nice..

Brakes are brakes right? No.
Why spend £2000 on Endless brakes which are 6 pot when you can get K-Sport 10 pots for £800

The flood gates are open to Rota (l00k, same as Rays and 1/4 da price), Tenzo-R, D2, Daiyama, Spax, Piper, K-Sport, XYZ and all the other inferior brands to start getting a market share in the JDM car scene when the majority should stick to £80 exhausts for Saxo boys. You cannot compare the likes of Piper to some of the stuff coming out of Japan. The workmanship and welds almost make it a crime to fit on your car to get dirty!

The day I see K-Sport, D2 and Rota on the side of an F1 truck as official partner is the day I take my own life:lol:

Yes, Endless, Rays, Enkei all have ties to F1 and various other forms of proper motorsport. The type of company to even get considered for a tender as wheel supplier of brake consultant says it all.

But don't worry. The cheap stuff is still as good.:lol:

 

[Bazza]

How many sets of teins fail in that time..? a very lot. Top of the range teins failing within a few thousand miles. Do a googlie on superstreet, masterflex or type flex, it makes for shocking reading.

Tein:

Entry: Basic
Entry: Superstreet without UM
Entry: Superstreet with UM

Mid: Type Flex
Mid: Mono Flex

Racing only: Super Racing
Racing only: N1

What ones are you saying have failed? SR and N1? Anyone using these on the road is a ****ing mong.

You can't even buy Super Racing without proof of racing etc!

You got any links? I found one from 2007? on the MLR.

But then again on the same thread one of the most respected Evo owners on there has always run Tein and had just won the MLR sprint series 3rd year in a row.. On Tein

 

[newannaive]

Regading Tein failing. I can only go off my experience and the experience of people I know that have used Tein. There are so many installation factors that could lead to failures and of course misuse etc. The same goes for the Mazda forum post tbh. But Tein have always stood behind their products with warranty and after care:

But..

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/off-topic/177728-why-bc-coilovers-suck-lol-3.html
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=D2+coilover+fail&aq=f&oq=&start=0
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=BC+coilover+fail&aq=f&oq=&start=0
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=268574&highlight=BC+Coilover
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=291388&highlight=BC+Coilover
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87946

first link - same story as the one at the start of this thread, he ran on full hard for 11 months, blew the strut and continued driving. Unfortunate.

second link - pics of knackered D2's. Not the same as what I have on my car and am expressing an opinion on, and all with unknown history.

third link - some broken buddyclubs and the same set of bc's that are at the start of this thread and your fist link y0.

fourth link - 5 pages of positive reviews, couple pages of knocking noises which sounds to be caused by loose bolts/collars..and a picture of someones strut after a car accident which is to be replaced for a very reasonable price, which the owner wqas over the moon with.

fifth link - not sure what that is about tbh, started with a bit of hearsay and ended in lots of positive feedback. err..thanks.

sixth link - not sure what that is either, lot of people saying different things..??

Look, I see what you trying to do here in regards to your 1000word essays on why BC Racing are bad and very expensive coilovers are great. I'm not about to try and convince you otherwise but this whole thread and 90% of your super-awesome links are just hearsay, gossip. There are several traders ion the country who have sold massive amounts of these kits with just a few faults to deal with since.
I myself have had my BC Racing kit on since the beginning of July and have covered about 7000miles since then, 99% Worcestershire B-roads with a couple of trackdays thrown in..(Launch Motorsport Kemble Airfield days-nothing major)..and my suspension still looks like brand new, still performs like the day I had it fitted. I am very happy with them.
If you are having trouble finding horror stories on other makes of coilover I would be willing to help you look. I was merely using them as an example that expensive does not mean reliability, and that there are horror storeis out there on ALL products. I was just reading the other night of a set of MonoFlex failing after less than 4000miles, there are even examples in those threads you posted if you read them all the way through. Do not be under the impression they are not out there, I just didn't post them up in a "in your face" stylee.

My initial gripe, which you took up and ran to the hill's with, is someone saying you have a reliable informant giving you ultra-relaible info that X-product is rubbish is nothing more than spreading rumours unless you share this info and said informant.
What is so bad about them..?? They come with a warranty, all parts are available next day delivery in the UK, parts are reasonabley priced and they work well, imo.

And your last post, do you really think I am refferring to race-only kits.??

I appreciate your opinion on wheels, brakes, exhausts etc...but I'm alright on that front, cheers all the same.

 

[Bazza]

first link - same story as the one at the start of this thread, he ran on full hard for 11 months, blew the strut and continued driving. Unfortunate.

second link - pics of knackered D2's. Not the same as what I have on my car and am expressing an opinion on, and all with unknown history.

third link - some broken buddyclubs and the same set of bc's that are at the start of this thread and your fist link y0.

fourth link - 5 pages of positive reviews, couple pages of knocking noises which sounds to be caused by loose bolts/collars..and a picture of someones strut after a car accident which is to be replaced for a very reasonable price, which the owner wqas over the moon with.

fifth link - not sure what that is about tbh, started with a bit of hearsay and ended in lots of positive feedback. err..thanks.

sixth link - not sure what that is either, lot of people saying different things..??

Fact of the matter is you don't see a "Tein failures thread" or "Exe-Tec failures thread". What does that tell you?

There are so many reported problems with "cheaper" coilovers that would make anyone stand up and take notice. It boils down to manufacturing, business ethics and nothing more.

China = make it, ship it, your problem if it goes wrong. You are making your money back x4. **** off.

Japan = make it with utter care and passion. Ship it after thorough QC and inspection. Provide support where possible. Thank you Thank you for buying from us (bowing bashing head into knees).

Sure the Japanese made product is more expensive but by now (well, since WWII) the Japanese are respected worldwide for innovation, technology and quality.

China/Taiwan is known for cheap and consumable.
Your mouse you are using, the keyboard, the office chair you are sitting on. Good chance its made in China.

BC hasn't been in the UK long and already there is a reputation brewing despite the market being completely flooded with traders from "pikey" traders who just sell at everything at cost + 5% because they trade from their Mum's back bedroom to some of the more "respected" companies.

Even friends in the industry have sold out to start trading in BC because everyone wants the cheapest and the level of business they are getting for Tein etc has dried up. I know of companies who were selling 3-4 Tein sets a week + the labour of fitting and then £80 for the geo to be done. Not a bad little earner!

It was the same old story with D2 until people started knocking at your door asking for a refund or a replacement because they are faulty.

Problem products get dropped because its too much aggro.

Look, I see what you trying to do here in regards to your 1000word essays on why BC Racing are bad and very expensive coilovers are great. I'm not about to try and convince you otherwise but this whole thread and 90% of your super-awesome links are just hearsay, gossip. There are several traders ion the country who have sold massive amounts of these kits with just a few faults to deal with since.

I myself have had my BC Racing kit on since the beginning of July and have covered about 7000miles since then, 99% Worcestershire B-roads with a couple of trackdays thrown in..(Launch Motorsport Kemble Airfield days-nothing major)..and my suspension still looks like brand new, still performs like the day I had it fitted. I am very happy with them.

That's great. Lets hope they continue working with no issues.
However, metal fatique isn't something that can be spotted easily with the naked eye!

As I said before, we'll see in 2010.

If you are having trouble finding horror stories on other makes of coilover I would be willing to help you look. I was merely using them as an example that expensive does not mean reliability, and that there are horror storeis out there on ALL products. I was just reading the other night of a set of MonoFlex failing after less than 4000miles, there are even examples in those threads you posted if you read them all the way through. Do not be under the impression they are not out there, I just didn't post them up in a "in your face" stylee.

True. M Class Merc is the biggest pile of **** in its class but stupid people still buy them:lol:

I wouldn't buy many products that get sold on forums by traders because I think there is better out there for similar money. What you have to remember is here in the Uk we only get a tiny % of the products being offered overseas. Mainly Spoon, Mugen, J's Racing, err.. Tein.. err. You get the picture. Tiny amount.

I can see on here now there is respect growing for FEELS products. Before I entered the scene it was a "holy grail" to be able to get your hands on FEELS stuff. Same goes for Project Mu. It was out there. But at crazy prices.

From that limited offering you don't have much choice for coilovers sub £1000 do you? I think even Mugen sports suspension is over £1200 from Mugen UK?

There is nothing wrong with sharing links to "horror stories" or "experience" threads. This is what forums are about. Hence the Mazda link. As long as the threads are "without prejudice" and state facts and not half stories that is fine (most forum BS is worded to drum up support when the original poster is actually in the wrong but can then hold the thread against said supplier - another reason I got ****ing out).

Coilovers are not TVs, not iPhones and not the new garden shed from Homebase. A coilover failure like the many failures I have seen with low end coilovers can result in major accidents.

An iPhone fails, what is the worse that can happen? :lol:

Buying a cheap Whalfdale TV won't kill anyone (apart from your pride!). Buying something that is cheap like coilovers "usually" means cheap materials, cheap workmanship and cheap QC. Basically Taiwan or China. Offering such extensive warranty in this game "could" mean they cost well under 100USD to produce and then put on a boat (in bulk) to come over to the UK, make hefty margin and they can just replace faulty units. The spare parts being cheap also worries me.

Most of the parts that are sold come with no warranty as they are designed for off road use only. Buyer beware basically.

I have absolutely nothing to gain by posting concerns about BC. I've been here before with D2, G-Force, Daiyama etc. And it all comes out after 12-18 months when there are threads after threads of failures. Some serious (like the Mazda link) and some just seals going.

The price point attracts a certain type of customer. Maybe too many "fit and forget" types out there trying to "mod (again, hate that word)" their car and forget that 12 months / 4 trackdays down the line their coilovers will need a rebuild.

Personally on an EP3 I'd be tempted to just go with something like Mugen suspension which is designed for fun road use without the headache of rebuilds etc. Same for LSD's etc stay clear of Diffs that need TLC and stick to simple OEM or Mugen etc.

My initial gripe, which you took up and ran to the hill's with, is someone saying you have a reliable informant giving you ultra-relaible info that X-product is rubbish is nothing more than spreading rumours unless you share this info and said informant.
What is so bad about them..?? They come with a warranty, all parts are available next day delivery in the UK, parts are reasonabley priced and they work well, imo.

Would you rather I just posted one word answers and "FAIL"?
I am trying to give you the benefit of experience, that is all.
You can convince yourself its fine. That the guy who sat and assembled your coilover doesn't live in a dorm for 100 USD a month in his pocket working 8-8 in a badly lite shed before going home once a year for "new year" to see his one child he is allowed.

Bottom line is I have far more experience with:

A) Honda tuning parts
B) Asian manufacturing
C) Shyte wanky products

Draw your own conculusion from that. I don't tell NASA how to build space rockets because i know **** all about space rockets.

You came on this thread to defend BC yet you admit you've had them on 5 minutes and done a few trackdays.

How could you do a back to back on the Tein Mono Flex vs BC? You can't. You can't get the welds analysed for cracks or signs of fatique, what would be your criteria for comparing a coilover?

Does it improve the drive and enjoyment of the vehicle?
Is it durable, easy to install and adjust?
Will it improve my laptimes?
Will it stay in one piece and not steer me off into the pitwall at 130mph

You are just trying to convince yourself they are fine and you did the "right" thing by buying them. For me it is a life and death choice. I understand its hard market to break in to and building a brand takes time etc.

I would want to see far more "race teams" using these products before I would commit to a purchase. My life is worth more than saving a few hundred £ over buying from a well respected brand.

And your last post, do you really think I am refferring to race-only kits.??
.

You said top of the range failing with a few thousand miles? The Super Racing and N1 aren't designed for road use.

And if you are racing and covered 4000 race miles I'd say that ain't bad!:lol:

Or did you mean Flex and Mono Flex?

 

[newannaive]

Fact of the matter is you don't see a "Tein failures thread" or "Exe-Tec failures thread".

But you do though. Try "Ohlins Failed" in google, theres something bad said about everything on t'internet, Tein don't have such a great aftersales care according to many threads I have read, months waiting for parts, refused warranty claims etc..particularly from the usa...not sure why....do I believe any of it...??..not much tbh. I usually prefer to form my own opinion.

That's great. Lets hope they continue working with no issues.
However, metal fatique isn't something that can be spotted easily with the naked eye!

As I said before, we'll see in 2010.

So metal fatigue is a problem I will encounter..??..why is this..?? If you could be more specific about the process/contruction and materials used to make my coilovers I would appreciate it, I'ts not helping anyone just keep saying they will break in 2 yrs time etc...explain the difference in materials and construction between them and the teins. Share this knowledge with us. From what I understand the quality of the materials used is very good, with some of the parts coming from japanese manufacture. Each and every unit is tested before it leaves the factory so imo they are nowhere near as shoddy as you are making out.

There is nothing wrong with sharing links to "horror stories" or "experience" threads. This is what forums are about. Hence the Mazda link. As long as the threads are "without prejudice" and state facts and not half stories that is fine (most forum BS is worded to drum up support when the original poster is actually in the wrong but can then hold the thread against said supplier - another reason I got ****ing out).

But they are all with prejudice, all the threads I have read about bad experiences with products or companies are very prejudiced. It is inevitable. Lost count of how many threads have I seen about some of the traders that get about on the Type R forums, late deliveries, poor aftersales care, late refunds etc etc etc...Word gets around, like you said earlier "the internet can make or break you" and threads like this are unhealthy for traders that are trading in the products everyone is slating right now...how many of us in this thread actually have a set of these coilovers that are so crappy and unsafe...?? How many of those owners agree with the rumour spreaders..??

Would you rather I just posted one word answers and "FAIL"?
I am trying to give you the benefit of experience, that is all.
You can convince yourself its fine. That the guy who sat and assembled your coilover doesn't live in a dorm for 100 USD a month in his pocket working 8-8 in a badly lite shed before going home once a year for "new year" to see his one child he is allowed.

Is this the way Bor Chuan operates..? I would be interested in hearing more about this badly lit shed that is the Bor Chuan factory.
I understood them to produce a TUV certified product with in-house damper dyno's and meticulous QC, to offer a thoroughly tested product with an outstanding aftersales and parts service. But, please, if you have evidence to the contrary we'd love to see it.

You came on this thread to defend BC yet you admit you've had them on 5 minutes and done a few trackdays.

How could you do a back to back on the Tein Mono Flex vs BC? You can't. You can't get the welds analysed for cracks or signs of fatique, what would be your criteria for comparing a coilover?

Does it improve the drive and enjoyment of the vehicle?
Is it durable, easy to install and adjust?
Will it improve my laptimes?
Will it stay in one piece and not steer me off into the pitwall at 130mph

You are just trying to convince yourself they are fine and you did the "right" thing by buying them.

Well nearly 5 months and 7k miles on crappy b-roads. So far so good. I'm sure they will be fine.

Not sure what the back to back test thing is about, sorry. You want me to compare them..?

Yes it improves drive and enjoyment of the vehicle considerably.
Yes they are very durable, as easy to install as oem and very easy to adjust, even managed to drop them by 3mm myself at the weekend, got them right first time on each, it's perfect.
Not sure on laptimes tbh, It's far improved over standard so I assume it would if thats your thing.
Hopefully I won't go into a pitwall at 130mph. not many of them round here though so I expect this to be unlikely.

I'm really not trying to convince myself of anything, or you. Just offering up a valid opinion, take it or leave it...though I suspect it will be left.

 

[seano]

So to sump up - out and out track cars - Ohlins, Nitron etc. Don't use this type of kit on a daily drive car, its not designed for all the crap that will get thrown at it.

If your car is mainly for road use, look carefully at the warranty offered / servicing on cheaper brands. There may be some bargains to be had eg BC, Meister R, but there are definately some horror stories.

There maybe a good halfway house with products such as Tein, AST or Mugen which have been around for a long time.

Just for road use - uprated springs is a good option.

Seano

PS I will have a set of Mono flex that have just come back from refurbishing under warranty @ Tein UK shortly. AST are changing the valving, fluid type and spring rates on Baby.

 

[MeisterR]

Well, this had gone a bit far and I think it is getting into a lot of "bias assumption".
I don't feel a company need massive staff and massive overhead to provide a good service.

What it will need is careful management of overhead, and honest care of customers.
Most importantly, it will need to keep stock. I always find people really surprise that when they order from MeisterR, they get their coilovers the next day. I thought that was how a normal business is suppose to operate, but it seems to be a bit of a "rarity" in this industry.

The MeisterR Factory is certified ISO9001 and ISO14001, it is also QS9000 (but that is no longer a valid standard).

As for the MeisterR Zeta-S / R coilovers, they have always been designed for Fast Road Use with Occasional Track Work, so they are not the best coilovers if you do decide to use slick tyres on a race car, but for a everyday road car that you want to enjoy... That was what the coilovers are design for.

As for quality, I don't consider MeisterR to be inferior to TEIN in any way, shape or form.
The MeisterR production unit had put in more UK development than TEIN have put in. We don't just make a unit and sell it, we talk to the community and find out what people want, then adjust our product specification to provide that.

To Undermine our effort simply because we don't have a "pedigree" or a extremely large international company with lots of overhead, I feel is extremely unjust.

 

[seano]

I certainly don't wish to undermine your product and wish you well in these difficult times - they look good and have some nice touches. However as you know as the "new kid on the block" it takes a while to build your reputation by having satisfied customers and serving them well when inevitably someone has a problem.

I wouldn't settle for only being as good as Tein - aim to beat them in the market segment you are going for!

Seano

 

[MeisterR]

I wouldn't settle for only being as good as Tein - aim to beat them in the market segment you are going for!

I do, MeisterR provide as good quality and better design to suit "customer's" need while being significantly cheaper than TEIN.

I personally believe the best products provides value for money.
Striking a balance between value/quality/service is the hard part and so far MeisterR have been very successful in that.

 

[wilkco1]

how are the bc,have they failed yet:lol:

 

[Stoo.]

Mine haven't

 

[wilkco1]

Mine haven't

do you recommend them mate,also do you do many track days on them cheers.

 

[Stoo.]

I didnt fit them to the car, i bought the car with them already fitted

Id say they have done about 5k miles or so.

I havent tracked it yet, although the car did come from NI and the roads there are sh1te!!

Id recommend them yes

 

[wilkco1]

cheers.

 

[MeisterR]

Wow, talk about bring a tread back to life.
Well, 1 year on I am still here... so that is good to know.

 

[JayK]

Ive put BC BR range on my ATR which will be running around 500whp for now, with custom springs.

Heres a good review on them against Tein's.

http://features.evolutionm.net/article.php?id=84

&

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-ho...615-bc-racing-coilover-install-br-series.html