Engine swap from Hell
Back in the beginning of August 2005 I commissioned Karma Imports to perform a 1999 Civic VTi Engine conversion on my 1996 LS Coupe.
I booked my can in on 5th of September to have the work done. I was quoted 3 to 4 days to complete.
I was told the work was finished and the car was ready on 18 October (32 working days).
I spent over £5000 with Karma Imports on the engine conversion, performance parts and labour. Since I picked up the car and they told me it was complete and they told me it was ‘running fine’ and ‘it was a good build’ I have found the following problems:
* Incorrect injectors fitted (180cc instead of 240cc – car was running dangerously lean) - Karma sorted this out by fitting correct injectors.
* Timing was retarded 11 degrees on a stock engine - Interpro fixed
* Distributor fitted incorrectly (upside-down) - Interpro fixed as best they could
* Wrong distributor (it’s the one from my sohc non-vtec – not even designed for 8000rpm) - Still need the proper one.
* Drivers side CV boot was not sealed correctly - Interpro fixed
* Lambda (O2) sensor was broken – to cover this up they fitted a sensor fooler. - New sensor fitted by Interpro
* Sensor fooler was wired to the heater circuit not the sensor! - Removed
* Thermostat broken (stuck open)
* Lots of gearbox noise just outside the warranty period, 4th gear syncro missing, reverse and first difficult to get into and out of.
* Mass coke deposits from the exhaust, possibly over fuelling due to thermostat
* Burning oil through the valve stem seals
* Power steering fluid leaking through join in pipe work
* Lack of power
On the last rolling road session it made 110bhp at the wheels (standard should be around 130bhp ish, with my mods it should be a lot more)
Since the warranty has expired (only 1000 mile warranty), IÂ’ve had the distributor put on properly and timing setup (still needs the correct dizzy), fitted a new lambda sensor, removed the fooler, and I still need to replace the thermostat, replace the clutch bearing and get a new intake filter.
I still can not believe they thought the car was running right!
Having taken advice from several different people I have decided to take the car is back to Karma to have the faults looked at and repaired. They have a new mechanic now who I have every confidence in fixing the car promptly and correctly.
At the moment I am willing to put this whole ordeal down to a bad mechanic, although management should have picked up on the length of time it was taking and pushed for an earlier completion. It is the mechanic after all, who can make or break a garage. Lets hope its right this time!
Below is a full account of the troubles I have had with the swap
I went to Karma Import (KI) Kingswood, Bristol on 13/08/05 to talk about engine swaps. I had previously taken a few other Honda’s for test drives, and finally decided on the B16A2 from the 1.6 Vti. They told me that its no problem, they can get in an engine and do the swap, once they have the engine it should take about 3-4 days to complete and quoted labour of £1,250. I had a read round the internet before hand and found that it is a complete bolt in swap and its “so easy it might even be fun” – sports compact car, and other sites say the same (about 5 or 6 I found), but they did mention about a few parts, such as the gear linkage, being needed.
I had a call a few days later to say that they have found an engine (complete B16A2 from a recently rear-ended 1999 VTi EK4, engine, gearbox, intake/exhaust manifolds, all sensors and accessories) 37k miles. £1,600 inc vat, a bit pricey I thought, but it is a good engine, has all the bits and should be ok... so I went for it, paid for the engine and all was set. I also ordered up a few performance parts while I was there (Quaife ATB Diff, SFS Silicone Hose Kit, Enjo Engine Mount Kit, Mugen valve cover and Spoon carbon plug cover. We agreed that I should pay for these parts upon completion of the project.
All excited I booked two weekÂ’s holiday from work and took my car down on 16/08/05 for the swap.
You can imagine my disappointment when I didn't see a sparkling new looking engine waiting for me... it was covered in grime and dirt, there was no dizzy, alternator or starter, the paint on the valve cover was mostly flaked off. My gut reaction to this was NO. I was unconvinced of the year and quality of the engine and was going to ask for my money back. They first checked out the engine and decided that it was from 1999, they compared it with one of their staffs EM1 and they said it was identical - all the sensors are there, parts are the same. I still wasn’t convinced of the condition of the engine, and was about to call it off when they offered to strip down the engine, clean all the parts, and rebuild with new gaskets, cam belt, seals and fully restore, any parts that need replacing will be replaced. They would also port and polish the head for a price of £700. Well a port and polish is £800 usually, and you should not judge a book by its cover, so when this work is done it will be like a new engine. Great thought I. Also, I had a problem with the ECU, when I looked at it I noted that it was a P30 type, which rang a bell with me, but at the time it didn’t click. I spoke to there mechanic about a few things I had picked up on the Internet especially the gear linkage, but he said that it wouldn’t be a problem. I assumed this could be differences between US and UK models, so I left it at that.
Friday when I went down they hadnÂ’t touched my car. They explained that they had been busy working on getting the engine ready to go in so I said ok, I need the car next week for work, but the two weeks after that (05/09/05) I will be on Jury Service and will be taking the bus. They can have my car for the two weeks no problem. They said that they have another car to work on for a few days on the first week (my brother in laws Subaru Legacy), but it wonÂ’t be a problem to get it done.
Because I had to work on the Saturday (03/09/05) I took my car to KI on the Friday and explained that I will be on Jury service and may not be contactable during the day, also not having a mobile proved to be a pain for me, but agreed that they could phone my home and leave a message to call them. Had a call later that day when they said that the engine wiring loom was faulty, some of the wires were damaged and that the clips were broken, so they had to get another one. I also raised the issue of the ECU number, which I had looked up on the Internet and told them the problem I had with it, and after he looked up the details on the internet and contacted Honda, he sent the old ecu back and got in a correct one (P2T).
So I went off to Jury service and left my car in good hands and gave them a call on Thursday to see how they were getting on, and they were taking a bit longer on my brother in laws car, they probably won’t be able to start mine until Monday. Starting to get a bit miffed now, but having a difficult case on Jury service so not thinking right and just left them to it. By this time I had borrowed my mums mobile, and on Wednesday 14/09/05 had a call to say that they have a problem with the wheels and axles – they don’t fit and they need to get in new wheel hubs, brake assembly, control arms and power steering linkage – about another £1,000. At this point (already a bit distressed by the case I was on) I said I can’t afford that and that I want to call the whole thing off and forget about it. It wasn’t the straightforward swap I was led to believe it was. He wasn't to happy with this and had a few good points in return to this – engine has had a lot of work done to it so they can’t send that back, diff was in so that cant go back, and some of the other parts are non returnable. I asked them to sort it out, but keep the costs down. I had a call a few hours later, where he apologised for making me panic, they looked again and compared with a staff car and decided that it would only be the wheel bearing that needed changing, relived I said go ahead and get one from Honda (about £100 I think) and it would be delivered the next day. Well that arrived and didn’t fit so they had to send for replacement wheel hubs, which turned up, but were wrong ones. I was also told that the exhaust manifold won’t mate up with my exhaust, so I ordered a 5Zigen Stainless steel 4-2-1 manifold to sort that out.
Now worried because I have to get to work on Monday, and the car is in an unusable state, my mum offered to give me a lift in and back for a short time, which was nice of her! All the parts are fitted, including the diff and the manifold and the only work now involved is to remove the old engine and put in the new. That week went by with different hubs and axles being ordered / sent back because they were wrong (sent or ordered I donÂ’t know) and they eventually got some that fit. Excellent now we can finally get a move on and was told that it would be ready the following week! So again I booked time off work (w/c 26/09/05) expecting to pick it up, and spend time driving around and washing/polishing/waxing it ready to take back to show off in work. Throughout this week, much progress was made; the old engine came out, new one in, all hooked up and wired in except for a problem with the rear engine mount, which was to short. Not a problem I was told because the mechanic can fabricate a mount. I also told them about an immanent MOT due on 09/10/05, they said they get a mot done without the catalyst no problem.
It was about this time I discovered South West Civics while browsing the Revolutions forum, and found that there was going to be a rolling road day at Interpro (which is 2 minutes walk from where I work), on 26th October. There were not any places left so I put my name down on the refusal list, having spent all this money I wanted to see what sort of power it would be putting down, because I had know idea. It was also a good chance to meet some of the other members. Dates changed, and people dropped out and I was able to get on the list for the new date of the 16th October and on 29/09/05 I put my name down with all expectation of it all being done by then.
Friday 30/09/05 I had a call to say that it was nearly all done, except that the car wonÂ’t start. Everything was all hooked up and ok, fuel pump primes, starter cranks the engine but it doesnÂ’t start - there is no injector pulse. IÂ’m getting worried now and I told them of the rolling road day and they assured me it would be ready by then. Also I had spent all this money and time on an engine that doesnÂ’t start. I couldnÂ’t get down to them to have a look, but talking with them on the phone I came to the conclusion that the ECU they had got in was equipped with an immobiliser, and they said they would look at that on Monday (it was about 6pm Friday this happed). I went in on Saturday they put the ECU from the old engine in and it fired up, not very well, and it wont idle because of the fuel maps and pressures are way out of spec, but it proved that the engine and wiring were ok. This confirmed my suspicions. I told them this on Saturday and they were going to sort it on Monday. When I phoned them on Monday they said that they had contacted a customer on Saturday, who has agreed to bring in his ECU for them to test and that he would be in Monday morning. He did not show and they could not contact him, so I said to get them to book it into Honda and get them to look at it. It was booked in for Wednesday (05/10/05).
Wednesday afternoon I phoned to see how they had got on and found out that they had managed to contact this guy and he would bring the ECU in on Saturday, a little annoyed but they wanted to test it before going to Honda (because Honda would charge a lot of money to look at it with no guarantee of a fix). Saturday he did not show, but said would be in Monday. Again I told them of the rolling road day was fast approaching and this needs to be sorted ASAP. No surprise when he didnÂ’t show again, so it was rebooked into Honda on Wednesday (12/10/05).
Lunchtime Wednesday I phoned and they reported that they have taken it down to Honda, and its now running, just a bit lean and vtec wont fully engage. It is also showing ecu errors on the malfunction indication lamp. I told them that vtec wouldn’t engage if there are errors, so they ‘pulled’ the codes (7 – throttle position sensor and 23 – knock sensor). Turns out that the engine didn’t have a knock sensor so one was fitted and that fixed that, and the TPS was replaced with the one from my old engine and that went away. I asked them what injectors they were using, and they said the ones from my old engine, to that I told them that they are no good and need to be from the new engine. They also said that there was a problem still with the engine mount (from a few weeks previous) that needed to be sorted and a part was due in on 14/10/05. Annoyed now I asked why this hadn’t been sorted while they were waiting for the ECU/Honda booking and they said that the mechanic had been busy.
The mount arrived on time and was looking good until they took it out on the night of 14/10/05 for a test drive; the problem with running lean had been sorted. On the test-drive, the ecu again showed errors (o2 sensor and tps again). Because the errors are showing the car is in ‘limp home’ and does not run properly. Also because of the ECU errors, the car is still without an MOT, so illegal for me to drive anywhere.
Needless to say I was unable to watch the track day and missed out participating in the rolling road event organised by Southwest Civics’ – missing Jtuner magazine as well.
They fitted an O2 sensor fooler, which cured the o2 sensor problem, and adjusted the throttle position sensor to give the right voltages, and on Monday 17th October they said the car was ready. It was booked in for an MOT on Tuesday, and on the late afternoon I picked up the car. Except that the diff has NOT been fitted because they wanted to make sure that the gearbox was ok first (they had told me a few weeks before that the diff was in an ok), and the spoon plug cover hasn’t turned up yet. Reluctantly I settled the bill and booked in to come back on 07/1/05 to get the diff fitted. “It shouldn’t take more than a day”
Following day I had a call to say that the plug cover has arrived, but I was unable due to work commitments to pick it up until the following Monday (24/10/05). When I went down the spoon part did not fit – the Mugen cover has rounded parts in it, which prevent the spoon cover from fitting. Also I thought the quality of the spoon cover was far inferior to an unbranded part they were selling at half the price. I was given a refund on that without problem.
Driving around I was impressed, it has much more torque, more power and acceleration is fast due to a short ratio gearbox, and I booked into Interpro in Thornbury, to get my suspension looked at and the camber setup. I also asked if they could have a quick look at a few issues I had. VTEC wont engage properly – no power, there is a weird smell inside the car, you can also smell it under the bonnet, and I found a problem with the drivers CV joint.
27/10/05 it was in Interpro, and by lunchtime all requested work had been completed. They advised that there was an issue with the car running very lean, and that a rolling road session would identify the issue, so they did that in the afternoon. About 3.30pm I had a call, they said that it had been on the rollers and made 129.5bhp. A little down I thought, trying to remember what it should be, 135 or something like that. “What did it make at the flywheel then?”, “No mate, that was at the flywheel!”, “it made 75.0bhp at the wheels”
Oh dear… I went down to Interpro (I work just down the road from there) and they advised me that the car is running very lean right across the range. You can even smell it running lean. Most likely cause of this is “incorrect injectors and/or fuel pressure”. They commented that the timing had been retarded to compensate for lack of fuel, but the injectors are going flat out and simply can’t flow enough fuel. Back to Karma! When I spoke to the guy down there and asked what injectors were in there and he said the ones from my old engine! I asked why the ones that came with the B16 were not used but he couldn’t answer me. He was going to make some calls and sort out the injectors and call me back.
DidnÂ’t hear anything, so Monday afternoon I popped in to find out. They had the injectors in, but their mechanic had left, and they had only just hired a new one (who is working part time until his notice from previous employer is up). I left my car with them on the promise that they would drop it off to me at home by 10pm.
I phoned them at 9.20pm to find out if they had called me (my mum had been on the phone for a while) and he explained that they had not started mine yet, they should have the one they are working on done in the next hour, and allow an hour for mine to be worked on – he should be able to drop it off at about 12 midnight. Being on the early shift (5.30am alarm call) I wasn’t prepared to stay up till that hour, he said I could bring it back up the next day and it’ll be the first job.
Went back the following day, and they said that it would be the first job and they would drop it back off to me – which they did. When I asked about the timing he said that they didn’t have the right tool, but would look at it later, when I went in to have the diff fitted (again?). I booked in for Interpro to sort me out with some new tyres and to have another power run.
Took the car up on Monday 07/11/05 to have the diff fitted, the mechanic is still working part time during evening and night, when I phoned up they said that they hadnÂ’t even had chance to look at it, but it will be the first job next day. He told me that it would be ready to pick up on the Wednesday morning. So 9.15am I arrived only to find my car still on the ramps, apparently they were uncertain as to which gearbox oil to use with the diff, they wanted to replace the thrust bearing and they wanted to replace a split pin on the wheel hub. I explained to him that he would have to drop it off to me that night when it was done, and he phoned at about 8pm to say he was on the way. Shortly after they arrived and said that the diff was in and good, timing had been sorted and the other bits were done. I took it for a quick test drive after they went and overall it was slightly better, not much more power, but the diff was defiantly working.
Thursday I went to Interpro to have tyres and a power run, I also asked them to check timing as I wasn’t convinced that it was done correctly (still not much power). Dropped it of at 9am, and they got on with the work, changed the front tyres, changed the oil and filter, inspected engine and started looking at the tuning. It looked like Karma had trouble fitting the distributor to the block because the VTEC solenoid was in the way, but instead of getting a distributor that fitted they rotated it round a bit and ‘bodged’ a fitment by machining it. As such the timing was even more out and the distributor wasn’t functioning correctly. Timing was out by 11 degrees retardation. Interpro were able to sort out the timing for me, but also found that the lambda sensor was faulty, and that the lambda sensor fooler was installed incorrectly and broken anyway (probably because it had been hooked up to a 12V source instead of a 1V source). Driving back from Interpro there was a definite difference in power and driveability; I think there was probably a larger power increase from Interpro sorting out the tuning on the engine properly, than Karma made by swapping in the new engine! At the end of the day the car made 152.5bhp at the flywheel (110bhp at the wheels) and this time I had a torque run and made 122 lbft @ 5750rpm. Still way down on power (it should be 158 for a standard engine, +2 for intake +? exhaust, +5 for decat, +? port and polish and manifold. I went back to Karma on the Friday and explained that the engine still wasn’t making the power it should - they were completely unable to explain why, and gave me the impression that they weren’t interested anymore. If they could think of a reason they would call be. I never heard back from them.
Warranty from Karma expired on 25/11/05 (limited to 1000 miles).
Monday 12/12/05 I popped into Interpro and asked if they could have a quick look at a few noises from the gearbox and clutch. First gear when slowing down would whine and when the clutch pedal was lifted in neutral you can hear a loud grinding noise. One of the mechanics took it out with me and could hear the noises, but said there was nothing to worry about as long as they don't get worse. Tuesday 13/12/05, the noises got worse and as I was driving, 4th gear popped out into neutral. When I tried to reengage it all I get is a grinding of gears when the clutch pedal is raised. I booked into Interpro to have them take a closer look at it. Thursday the whining noise is even louder, in first, second and third. Fourth gear will not engage. I also have trouble getting out of first now.
With all the other problems I had with Karma, I was very reluctant to let them have the car back to work on again. I had been in contact with Trading Standards for advise and I had a lengthy discussion with my brother-in-law about the issues, and decided to phone Karma and I Alex all about the problems had been having and that I did not trust them to do the work and if there was something we could work out, I asked if they would be willing to help cover 1/2 the cost for Interpro to look at it. They were unwilling to do this, insisting that they would fix all the problems at a discount labour rate for me. I said I would be down on Monday for them to LOOK at the car only.
Monday 19/12/05 having taken advice from Trading Standards and my brother-in-law I reluctantly took the car back to Karma to have the faults fixed. My brother in law convinced me that as they have a new mechanic now I should let him look at it. Tony, had nothing to-do with the previous work, and it was unfair to tarnish him with the same brush and the previous mechanic.
On the Sunday I prepared a list of faults (an I'm no mechanic!), my brother in law went through the list, and added a few more for me. We took the car to Karma on Monday morning and had a good chat Tony about the problems. When the time came to take the car for a test drive, he could not get reverse gear to engage, so that put a stop to that one. He could feel and hear that the gearbox was no good though. He did a compression test for me, the previous day me and my brother in law saw plumes of blue smoke from the exhaust and were worried about the piston rings. Compression results were good at 170, 179, 175, 165psi from cylinder 1 to 4. Tony suspected the valve stem seals on the head, and the lack of power could be accounted for my an overly aggressive port and polish. I left the car with them Monday afternoon, I'm happy to let Tony fix all the problems. I have given him a printed list of the problems to work though.
Had a phone call on Tuesday to say that he had looked at the car and the gearbox will need replacing (I will have to cover the cost of a new part) and the cylinder head will need to be replaced (at Karma's cost) as far to much material was removed during the polish.
Friday afternoon I popped in and we had a good chat, and I enquired about valve springs as I will be looking into cams in the future and as the head is off and being rebuilt now would be a good time. Tony showed me a few things on the car, and a little bit about how gearboxes work. I left feeling much more positive, no hard feelings any more.
Late Friday afternoon I had a cell from Trading Standards, asking who things were going between myself and Karma. I was able to give them good news that Karma are fixing all their mistakes and its looking good for all repairs to be carried out early in the new year. They will call be back in the second week of January just to follow up. Hopefully I can tell them that it is all sorted and they can close the case.
I will admit to being very angry before - who wouldn't be after all this? I have every confidence in Tony to fix this for me.
I would like to thank the guys at Interpro Automotive in Thornbury for all the work they have done, they have been very helpful in reporting on the faults with the car, and repairing some things.
I would also like to thank (in no particular order)
CivicDisturbance, b16beg, quiel_type_r and mattday from Honda Revolutions
and
Blazed, io_303, Grendel, MySiIzFaster, anekin007, FRODO and oc_civic on Club Civic
and any others that I may have forgotten!
For all the help and guidance they have given me over the past few months.[/b]
10-12-05 Updaded to bring uo to date
15-12-05 Updated for clarity
16-12-05 Spelling owns me
25-12-05 Updated to bring up to date
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Last edited by lonewolf on Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:39 pm; edited 5 times in total
