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Can't decide which coilovers

Dank84

Dank84

Messages
57
First of all hello, this is my first post. :)

I'm about to buy an ep3, I don't want to go into too much detail about the car just yet (I'll save that for another thread) but it's pretty much track ready and just needs some coilovers. I've done a lot of research and whilst I'd love a set of nitrons or ast's with some fancy adjustable damping I don't have the budget just yet, especially with the amount of track days coming up. Something I can look at over winter.

In the meantime, and to get me through the Summer I've done a bit of research numbered it down to these two:

http://www.bc-racing.co.uk/applicat...c-ep3-03-05/br-series-coilover-type-ra-3.html

http://www.meisterr.co.uk/vehicles/honda/honda-civic-ep3/

The car is going to be a 2nd car, it will purely be used for track days (and the occasional blast round some nice driving roads near me) so day to day comfort is not an issue. The BCs I was considering the 8/10kg/mm setup and the Meister I was considering the ZETA-R SuperRace (I don't think there is an option on spring rate?). Has anyone any experience with these or any knowledge which are more preferable for track use? I've seen the guys at Meister post on here a lot when I've researched which inclines me more towards them, it seem there's a good level of support and their product you would like to think reflects this.

I've got a few other bits to go on the car, full polybush bit, arbs etc.

Thanks guys. :)
 
Really wouldn't consider either to be honest! What's your budget?
 
I'd save another couple of hundred and get Bilstein's or KW's personally. The quality compared with the ones you mentioned are in a different league.

Yes they don't come with camber adjustable top mounts, but you can buy aftermarket later down the line, and it also saves you buying coilovers over again if you plan to get AST or Nitrons which are really used if you're going to compete.
 
AdamB said:
I'd save another couple of hundred and get Bilstein's or KW's personally. The quality compared with the ones you mentioned are in a different league.

Yes they don't come with camber adjustable top mounts, but you can buy aftermarket later down the line, and it also saves you buying coilovers over again if you plan to get AST or Nitrons which are really used if you're going to compete.
Click to expand...

Cheers Adam!

http://www.dcperformance.co.uk/cheap/254040/honda/kw-variant-2-coilovers/kw15250007.html

Are these the ones you're referring to? To be honest I didn't even consider the KW, I just assumed they wouldn't have adjustable damping so that is a nice surprise.
 
I have to chime in and ask why, given the purposes of the OP I would say the MeisterR ZetaCRD+ would be a better option.

If not don't look at the price, and just purely at the suspension:

MeisterR: Compression / Rebound combine adjustable Mono-Tube dampers
KW: V1 - Non adjustable twin-tube dampers, V2 - Rebound only adjustable twin-tube dampers.

On a performance scale, MeisterR already out class the KW as a fast road & track use suspension with focus on track use.
MeisterR are also dual perch design, come with adjustable camber front top mount, comes with rear top mount.

Then when you look at the price, the MeisterR are also a cheaper setup.
So I am just wondering what is wrong with the MeisterR for the OP purposes that members feel it is not up to the job for OP purposes?

Jerrick
 
MeisterR said:
I have to chime in and ask why, given the purposes of the OP I would say the MeisterR ZetaCRD+ would be a better option.

If not don't look at the price, and just purely at the suspension:

MeisterR: Compression / Rebound combine adjustable Mono-Tube dampers
KW: V1 - Non adjustable twin-tube dampers, V2 - Rebound only adjustable twin-tube dampers.

On a performance scale, MeisterR already out class the KW as a fast road & track use suspension with focus on track use.
MeisterR are also dual perch design, come with adjustable camber front top mount, comes with rear top mount.

Then when you look at the price, the MeisterR are also a cheaper setup.
So I am just wondering what is wrong with the MeisterR for the OP purposes that members feel it is not up to the job for OP purposes?

Jerrick
Click to expand...

That's a bit of an incorrect statement. Feature wise yes, performance... well that's down to the driver.

No one in this thread said that the Meister coilovers are not up to the job, but that based on opinion we would rather use something else.

Meister have exploited a gap in the market for a half decent coilover with great customer support for those that don't wish to spend £1200+ for coilovers on a vehicle that only cost them £800. Trying to compare to some of the worlds largest suspension manufactures doesn't even come close for me, you only have to look at the vehicle application list and that tells the story itself. And yes I have used Meister coilovers before.
 
AdamB said:
That's a bit of an incorrect statement. Feature wise yes, performance... well that's down to the driver.

No one in this thread said that the Meister coilovers are not up to the job, but that based on opinion we would rather use something else.

Meister have exploited a gap in the market for a half decent coilover with great customer support for those that don't wish to spend £1200+ for coilovers on a vehicle that only cost them £800. Trying to compare to some of the worlds largest suspension manufactures doesn't even come close for me, you only have to look at the vehicle application list and that tells the story itself. And yes I have used Meister coilovers before.
Click to expand...

When i say performance, I honestly am talking about an unbiased review of the suspension performance.
There is a reason why we use Mono-tube damper, there is a reason why we have compression and rebound adjustable combined adjustments.
And it isn't because that is what is available on the shelf.

First, you may need to know that MeisterR isn't another company that just purchase suspension off the shelf of some other factory.
We have been constantly changing and improving, both in our technical ability as well as products.

MeisterR have formed technical partnership with Black Art Design (BAD), one of the best suspension specialist in the UK.
They are the preferred suspension supplier for special vehicle project for Millbrooks Proving Ground, and have provided suspension to OEM, government, and military projects.
They also have a track record of providing suspension for championship winning race car, and one of their high profile race car BAD worked on is a Pike Peaks Ford RS200 that was 1 of 8 cars in the world to reach the top of the Pike Peak within the 9 minute mark (known as the 9 minute club) in 2013.


BAD1.jpg



BAD is MeisterR in house research and development technical partner, as well as the one responsible for input into our current ZetaCRD suspension, and engineering our GT1 suspension.
We have CNC in house producing precision parts used in the GT1, as well as being one of the few suspension supplier using fully CNC seals because we are able to produce them in house.

Our current range of ZetaCRD uses our in house designed Close Ratio Damping (CRD) and is what make the MeisterR coilovers ride nicer, grip harder, and perform better than the next suspension.
These valving setup are engineered in our R&D workshop, so you won't find this on any other suspension.


ZetaCRDdyno2.png



Now that we got MeisterR current status and technical ability out of the way, lets look at the performance side of the thing.

The reason I say MeisterR's "performance is better" is because Mono-tube will exhibit a more stable and consistent damping under track use than twin-tube damper.
Mono-tube damper are able to dissipate heat better, maintain more consistent damping, and provide more responsive damping over a track session.

Damper valving and damping adjustment also plays a role.
The CRD specifically have a close ratio between compression and rebound force, and adjust together.
What this mean is on softer setting, you can have a compliant ride quality that is good for daily use on uneven road surfaces.
On the stiffer damper setting, the increase compression force will help push the tyres into the ground to generate better traction, as well as provide better steering response.

The above 2 quality of the MeisterR damper vs. a KW V2 is a major performance difference.
They aren't personal opinion, but objective comparison between 2 damper base on facts and understanding of vehicle dynamic that have been accepted across the board.
So those are my reason when I say "why" I think MeisterR can do the job that the OP ask and provide better result for his needs when compared to the KW.


If you feel that a smaller technical suspension specialist like MeisterR shouldn't be compared to large suspension manufacturer such as KW, Bilstein, etc; that is a perfectly acceptable.
I don't argue that brand image and pedigree takes time to build, and many user had been happy their choice of suspension with KW, etc.

MeisterR as a company haven't stand still over the past 8 years; we are constantly improving.
It is like with many things in the automotive industry, tell someone you paid more for a Toyota then a Mercedes-Benz 20 years ago and people will look at you thinking you are crazy.
And now, it is an everyday occurrence with Lexus.

If people think MeisterR are just another suspension brand with pretty anodise colour and no technical ability like many others on the market, they are gravely mistaken.
We are changing all the time to improve ourself, so don’t think “Old” MeisterR product will perform the same as “New” MeisterR products; because when we make improvement we don’t just change the colour.


Jerrick
 
Wow thanks for all the information. To be fair your argue a very good point. I've taken another look at the KWs v2 and I thought it was separate adjustability on bump/rebound when in fact it's combined. At £1200 it doesn't seem worth it. Fair enough they are stainless steel and a couple of other bits but an extra £500 worth? Not really.
 
I have zeta r's on my ep3, I like them. And got them cheap second hand, come up from time to time.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
Dank84 said:
Wow thanks for all the information. To be fair your argue a very good point. I've taken another look at the KWs v2 and I thought it was separate adjustability on bump/rebound when in fact it's combined. At £1200 it doesn't seem worth it. Fair enough they are stainless steel and a couple of other bits but an extra £500 worth? Not really.
Click to expand...

KW V2 is rebound only, so it doesn't even adjust compression.
Which to me looking from a vehicle dynamic point of view is lacking if they are trying to do a good fast road & track day suspension.

Changes in rebound change how the car feel, so you get less body roll on stiffer setting and that is what most owners are happy with.
Changes in compression change what the tyres see, how quickly it get loaded up and how hard it is push.
You want the compression to change with the rebound, because on stiffer setting you want the higher compression force to push on to the tyres.

Even on the V3 and ClubSport that is compression / rebound separated adjustment, it often raise more question than solution it normally delivery.
For a good fast road car, you generally want to see a 3 to 1 rebound to compression force ratio
For track car, you can bring that ratio down to 2 to 1.
For some of the race car stuff, they can go down to 1 to 1 if you are looking at some of the Ohlins race suspension (which even we think is nuts, for us normally pure race stuff can get down to 1.5 to 1).

So what this mean is unless you know the force generated for each adjustments, you cannot actually adjust the dampers because you won't know what you are dialling in.
KW do not offer damper dyno with their V3 or their ClubSport, as one of my customer already asked and got no specific data from KW.
So to properly set them up, you pretty much have to stick a unit on a dyno yourself to get all the figure, which is extremely cost intensive and rarely done.

We have a saying: A damper will only function as well as it's setting.
So having more adjustment isn't a good thing if the owner do not know how to adjust it, because it just mean there are more possibility of getting things wrong.
A basic damper with good setting will out perform an advance damper with bad setting.
This is why engineer that understand vehicle dynamics are often needed for track side support in race team.
Most race driver knows what they want the car to do, they just don't know what to adjust to get the car doing what they want.

Jerrick
 
Thanks for all the info. Am I right in assuming the ZETA-R SuperRace and MeisterR ZetaCRD+ are the same?
 
From what I understand. The Zeta-R's have been discontinued and now replaced by the ZetaCRD.
I previously had the Zeta-R and found them great. Now have their GT1's and they're even better.
 
Yes, Lewis is right in that the Zeta-R and Zeta-R Super Race have both been discontinued.
The ZetaCRD+ is the replacement and our latest generation.

The ZetaCRD+ uses the same springs rate as the old Zeta-R.
The CRD valving however will make the suspension performance much better than before.
It wouldn't surprise me to see someone with a set of ZetaCRD post a faster lap time than someone with the Zeta-R SuperRace.

Jerrick
 
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