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Diagnose this

Sleepyep

Sleepyep

Messages
30
You'll need criminal diagnosing skills for this as I've been to 5 garages and 3 had work done on it and still the engine sounds like a small diesel.
Things changed: tensioner, chain, filter and oil. Filter and oil changed twice just to make sure its got a freeflowing filter and 5w30 oil. Had synthetic and mineral. Currently mineral.
Timing done. Valve clearances done. Purrs once above 1500 rpm and theres no chain slap. It doesnt make this on deceleration.
Its not VTC actuator rattle. No CEL.
Checked for piston slap and rod knock by disconnecting injectors and spark plugs one by one, noise still there. Vtec engages and the engine pulls very very well for its 160 hoerses, definately no burnt valves or other stuff that could cause power loss. Power is there.
Its just at traffic light I have to dip my head below the windows because badges say 2.0 but apparantly its a smelly diesel.

https://youtu.be/ItGhTMg-eyc

Thanks for any input.
 
Plugs and coil packs okay then? Fuel is good too?

Anyone checked the bottom end shells?
 
Plugs, coils ok. No one checked the shells, because big end knock was out of question since it keeps knocking if you disable the cylinders one by one. 4 garages said so and I knew it as well. Knocking should at least subside a little on a non firing cylinder if it knocks when firing but that wasnt the case, knocking continued as normal.
Original oil before 1st oil change since owning the car has been checked for silvery stuff. Nothing, cut away the filter too, no metal particles. Its 110% not piston, wrist pin or rod bearing knock, they all produce shavings but theres none.
The knocking is louder at the cylinder head cover than at the bottom.

Also done the screwdriver stethoscope thing, it knocks the loudest where the cam sprockets are, or valve rockers for cylinder #1.

Will pop the head cover off today after work and take a really close look.

Regarding oil, poured .4 litres of some heavy duty oil treatment thats thick like honey and its supposed to stop knocks, but it stopped f all, so I doubt thicker oil will do more than that. Im glad it didnt work though, its advertised for rod knocks and such, if it had stopped, couldve meant I did in fact had a rod knock, glad it didnt.
 
Use a good 5W40 for a start, fully synthetic, use a well known OEM brand such as Castrol, Shell etc.

Have you had a compression test done?

Have the valve clearances been done to Honda specification on a stone cold engine?
 
Dooksy said:
Use a good 5W40 for a start, fully synthetic, use a well known OEM brand such as Castrol, Shell etc.

Have you had a compression test done?

Have the valve clearances been done to Honda specification on a stone cold engine?
Click to expand...

Valve clearances 0.21 mm intake and 0.3 exhaust. On k20a3 exhaust has bigger gap than on k20a2. Compression test was one of the first things done, cant remember what psi they were but good numbers and close to eachother.
If inspection today will reveal nothing, will try 5w40.

Where can I buy a k20a3 exhaust cam? I remember seeing 2 parralel grooves in one of the lobes, very shallow ones, mechanic said nothing to worry about but its on my mind since.
 
Member on DC5 forum had same issue. Complete head rebuild, timing chain etc etc etc. Turned out to be a spark plug jumping inside it's "jacket".
 
Bonito said:
Member on DC5 forum had same issue. Complete head rebuild, timing chain etc etc etc. Turned out to be a spark plug jumping inside it's "jacket".
Click to expand...



Knowing my luck ill probably have it worse, will spend ages fault finding, spend twice the car value on parts, sell it for peanuts when im fed up then next owner finds a lego piece rattling on some cover.
I do have a 1.6 EP2 with the D16V1 engine, willing to swap plugs if they fit in the A3.
Never one problem with that D16 in 5 years.
 
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Right guys, took me a little while, but changed the oil to 5w40 full synthetic, ester based and quite expensive (not the cheap hydrocracked "fully synthetic"). Cut the long story short I hear no difference between 5w30 synthetic, 5w30 mineral, 5w30 synthetic with oil treatment additive, and now 5w40. Nada. Sounds the same on all of them. I shot a quick vid today with a windshield wiper mounted camera to catch as much as possible of the actual engine sound, as dash vids muffle the engine noise.

As a note, the engine works great. Apart from the clattering noise, no problems. BUT. I CANT DRIVE LIKE THIS, Its driving me nuts. Sorry for the CAPS. But its really driving me nuts already. I cant bear the noise. At this point your wildest guess is as good as mine.

[video]https://youtu.be/PEq3HgAUT8A[/video]
 
Bottom end wont knock due to the fact that the crank will dip & flick the oil up ,
Sounds like top end knock from the video (with wind noise)
Have you had the oil pressure checked ?
Just for now
remove oil filler cap & run engine , does it spit oil out ?
From what you have described in previous posts it could quite possably be the oil pick up pipe in the sump partially blocked
 
Sorry about the wind noise, shouldve thought about shielding the mic hole. Aaannddd...youre right. Started the car and removed the oil cap after about 15 seconds. Is there supposed to be exhaust-like noise, smell and pressure coming through? Peeked inside, the cams are running on dry!! Left the cap off for a good minute, not as much as a drop of oil came out with engine idling. How it never occured to me to check for this? When the chain was changed and the cover was off, everything under the head cover was gold in colour. I was thinking oil stain. But it couldve been baked in oil fumes.
What now.
 
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Sleepyep said:
Sorry about the wind noise, shouldve thought about shielding the mic hole. Aaannddd...youre right. Started the car and removed the oil cap after about 15 seconds. Is there supposed to be exhaust-like noise, smell and pressure coming through? Peeked inside, the cams are running on dry!! Left the cap off for a good minute, not as much as a drop of oil came out with engine idling. How it never occured to me to check for this? When the chain was changed and the cover was off, everything under the head cover was gold in colour. I was thinking oil stain. But it couldve been baked in oil fumes.
What now.
Click to expand...

Yes when cap removed you should get a deep drone noise & oil should be flicking up/out of the filler cap
, you said in an earlyer post that the engine goes quiet above approx 15/2000 rpm ? This will be because the pressure is higher forceing oil up at higher rpm
Me i would have the sump off & remove oil pickup pipe , eather clean it out or replace it , does sound like oil starvation to the head
 
jizzy said:
Yes when cap removed you should get a deep drone noise & oil should be flicking up/out of the filler cap
, you said in an earlyer post that the engine goes quiet above approx 15/2000 rpm ? This will be because the pressure is higher forceing oil up at higher rpm
Me i would have the sump off & remove oil pickup pipe , eather clean it out or replace it , does sound like oil starvation to the head
Click to expand...

I will absolutely do that this weekend, if only could find a place to drain oil then put the car on stands and drop the pan. Will scoop around. Im so happy I (might) have found the cause of it, thanks jizzy. Thats exactly what it sounded like, a deep droning noise through the filler cap. How on earth is there no cam lobe wear when the thing was bone dry at idle.
Cam followers might be a different story.
And how is Vtec and VTC working is beyond me. Because they are working, this morning floored it in 2nd to overtake a lorry (on a very short section of road where one lane splits in 2, of course) and everyone behind me was mad jelous cause they couldnt do 20-60 in a blink of an eye (or 2) hehe. Seriously it pulled like a mad c... you know what. And I have no lights on the dash.
Fingers crossed theres no real valvetrain damage.
 
Just got back in the house from under the car. Took me the whole day this thing, that pan wouldnt come out for the life of it. Had to raise the engine and lower the subframe on the drivers side. No sludge or metal bits, there was some dirt looking unrecognisable bits but in a very very little amount, maybe carbon or bits of hondabond. Oil pump pickup mesh looking like it was just taken out of the box. Not as much as one hole was blocked.

So I dont think its the oil pump. Vtec works, VTC works, both use oil pressure to actuate, never had a CEL or low oil pressure light come on even for a second (the lights do work, come on and turn off normally).
Its either the passages or the cams themselves are clogged and dont let oil through. Took the pump off but have no energy or time to take it apart now. Will remove the head cover the each camshaft one by one, will try to run a wire all the way down the oil feed passage, with the pump removed, see if anything comes through and clean each cam.

Before i started this, used an oil squirter through the oil filler cap to splash some oil everywhere on the cams, and started the car right away. All diesel noise was gone for a minute until the oil drained away. I used very little oil, maybe 50 ml. That was enough to keep it quiet for a minute. As the diesel rattle normally comes as soon as I let off the throttle, it means that there is zero oil coming through when revved...noise is not gone but cant make it out due to revs. Cant believe I drove 300 miles like this and nothing broke.

2016-07-03 23.19.06.jpg

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2016-07-03 23.19.33.jpg

PS the car is on the road with pan off, is it ok or the wind can blow dust inside the main bearings? Will flush it before starting it.
 
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Sleepyep said:
Just got back in the house from under the car. Took me the whole day this thing, that pan wouldnt come out for the life of it. Had to raise the engine and lower the subframe on the drivers side. No sludge or metal bits, there was some dirt looking unrecognisable bits but in a very very little amount, maybe carbon or bits of hondabond. Oil pump pickup mesh looking like it was just taken out of the box. Not as much as one hole was blocked.

So I dont think its the oil pump. Vtec works, VTC works, both use oil pressure to actuate, never had a CEL or low oil pressure light come on even for a second (the lights do work, come on and turn off normally).
Its either the passages or the cams themselves are clogged and dont let oil through. Took the pump off but have no energy or time to take it apart now. Will remove the head cover the each camshaft one by one, will try to run a wire all the way down the oil feed passage, with the pump removed, see if anything comes through and clean each cam.

Before i started this, used an oil squirter through the oil filler cap to splash some oil everywhere on the cams, and started the car right away. All diesel noise was gone for a minute until the oil drained away. I used very little oil, maybe 50 ml. That was enough to keep it quiet for a minute. As the diesel rattle normally comes as soon as I let off the throttle, it means that there is zero oil coming through when revved...noise is not gone but cant make it out due to revs. Cant believe I drove 300 miles like this and nothing broke.

View attachment 17340

View attachment 17341

View attachment 17342

PS the car is on the road with pan off, is it ok or the wind can blow dust inside the main bearings? Will flush it before starting it.
Click to expand...

Cover it with a large bin bag
 
Think you are looking at low oil pressure , as you say check the oil gallerys & oil ways
 
Opened the pump and checked clearances, theyre within specs, plus its very smooth to turn, the pump is good. Absolutely no obstruction inside, as theres none in the block all the way up to the VTC solenoid filter screen which was clean, few particles on it but that was it. Clean fresh oil sitting inside the cover, definately no obstructions in the block, which would be damn difficult considering the size of the oil ways...very big.

And since I learned the Vtc actuator uses the same oil that lubricates the intake camshaft, I really hit the wall here, as the intake cam is dry but Vtc works.

Have ordered a K20A2 pump, if nothing else then for the better throttle response (it doesnt have the 2 huge balancing shafts).
 
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