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VTC gear

T

typevtec

Messages
12
Hi

I have a 04 CTR and the VTC gear is on its way out as I have the cold start rattle. I want to know how much it would cost to fix all in and where is the best place to get it done in the north west.

Cheers
 
TDi North or Grinspeed are two highly regarded garages in that neck of the woods. I've used both and both a top guys guys that you can't go wrong with.
 
I paid £270 labour to have the timing chain, tensioner, guides & VTC gear changed. There is 2 ways to change the gear, you either remove the timing chain case which means it will take pretty much the same time as changing the timing chain since it involves the same procedure and in this case you might aswell change the chain and tensioner at the very least. OR you remove the intake camshaft and change the gear out of the car.

What is the mileage? Maybe its worth doing the timing chain at the same time.
 
Well thats unfortunate, there are ways to get the gear off that are not so professional, You can take off the brackets for the camshaft, pull the chain out the way and just tilt the camshaft up at the gear end enough to get the gear off, sort of a semi-removal.

I had mine done at a local garage owned by a honda tech, bearing in mind my price is only for labour, I bought the parts online, my total cost is £520 to get the job done.
 
I know i should have done it altogether but didnt know I had to. So am I right in saying that 200 - 300 would sound right. Also will it cause any damage to the engine if I dont get it sorted immediately?
 
Where can I but this vtc gear from my car is In for timing chain on Wednesday cause of cold start up rattle I'm worried now maybe I should change this at same time but I can't find the part
 
Thanks for that I've just ordered the vtc gear hopefully that's it now only had the car a week it's costing me a fortune already
 
Stuart89 said:
http://japserviceparts.co.uk/civic/...1-on/engine-parts/cam-gears-and-vtc-gear.html

Cold start rattle is likely to be VTC and not timing chain.
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Really? The cold start rattle is usually to do with not enough pressure on the timing chain from the tensioner. Since it is hydraulic, the oil pressure allows the pressure of the tensioner to hold the chain in place (tensioned).

Your Vtec gear or chain for the gear, will not likely need replacing unless, there is a slippage when you're driving the car in Vtec or hear a rattling when in Vtec.

The rattle you hear on a cold start is in my opinion the tensioner, if the rattle goes away after a few seconds then the tension has built back up on the timing chain from the tensioner.

I am only going on what I have been told from a Honda Technician. Your rattle may be different from what I was experiencing though.
 
BushyBaws said:
Really? The cold start rattle is usually to do with not enough pressure on the timing chain from the tensioner. Since it is hydraulic, the oil pressure allows the pressure of the tensioner to hold the chain in place (tensioned).

Your Vtec gear or chain for the gear, will not likely need replacing unless, there is a slippage when you're driving the car in Vtec or hear a rattling when in Vtec.

The rattle you hear on a cold start is in my opinion the tensioner, if the rattle goes away after a few seconds then the tension has built back up on the timing chain from the tensioner.

I am only going on what I have been told from a Honda Technician. Your rattle may be different from what I was experiencing though.
Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzeq0nFDJQI&feature=youtu.be

The rattle in the video above is the VTC gear. The chain tensioner has a ratchet system to stop the tensioner from removing its tension from the chain, oil pressure or not. To get a rattle like that video the chain would be pretty loose which would be very dangerous and likely to jump a link. The VTC gear is also filled with oil which is why you get the rattle on a cold start when there is no oil in it and it disappears when it fills.

To further back this up I will add my own experience. I had this cold start rattle since I bought the car, I changed the only the tensioner first through the inspection hatch (dont do this, I dont know what I was thinking) and it did not change the cold start rattle. I then had the timing chain, guides and VTC gear changed and I have not heard it since. It seems to me that not many people know about this gear since I struggled to find the information on it when I was trying to diagnose the rattle for myself, but I did find a few threads where people had their cars in and out of garages trying to locate it, changing different parts to eventually discover it was the VTC gear.

The problem with testing this though is the difficulty of changing the gear, you can risk it by changing just the chain, tensioner and guides but if you are wrong then you will need to do the whole job again to change the VTC gear, it would cost you more than the £110 for the gear to do the job twice.
 
Hey Stuart,

You could be right or then again you could be wrong. I was not having a go if you thought that, i was trying to suggest it could be other things also.

You have me slightly concerned now, as my car is in the garage just now and they are replacing only the timing chain and tensioner...guides etc...

My car was pulling fine through the vtec, it was however a tad rattly before vtec...my thought was the chain/tensioner...it appears that both were needing replaced anyway, thankfully the noise was apparent to notice the fault.

the vtc gear, is that situated where the main cams are also? As that is where the noise originated from. 1-2 second rattle on start-up.

Now wondering whether or not to phone the garage and let them know about the vtc gear also, so that after all the work they've done on it isn't wasted to further more have to strip it back again to replace that also.

Decisions decisions
 
Dont worry I didnt think you was having a go.


vPSsk.jpg


The VTC gear is on the right, its attached to the intake camshaft (slightly different engine, the timing chain case is higher on the K20a2 so you cant remove the gear in place like the picture above).

My car drove perfectly fine throughout the rev range, the only time I would get a rattle is when going down a hill with the car in gear (no throttle). I didnt have rattles before vtec. I would get the start up rattle everytime I started the car from cold though, I had someone else start the car while I was over the engine and the sound was definately coming from the VTC gear area.

Here are some more videos of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0NlwfTPcT0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8TbdUNZFVk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIO5y2rSiM

If this is what your car sounds like then I would suggest its the VTC.
 
Nah, mines is definately not making noises going downhill...Im hoping the mechanic has pin-pointed the issue with regards to it being the chain and tensioner.

The noise didn't happen all the time from cold, was only 80% of the time really.

Noise seemed to be coming from far left side of the block, here's hoping this fixes the issue as it was more annoying that anything wondering what it was.
 
Sorry to revive an old topic here but I've got a rattle on cold start up, was pretty convinced it was the chain tensioner until reading this thread. Other than the rattle on cold start up (anywhere between 1-3secs and only on first cold start) no other issues at all. Have posted an article I read about the tensioner below, I'm only a novice on the type r so thoughts and opinions from more experienced and those who have had each issue would be appreciated.


How They Work K-series tensioners aren't terribly complex and, simply put, do little more than push a small piston back and forth against the engine's timing chain guide, keeping the chain tight. They do so hydraulically-not unlike older H22A tensioners-which means K-series tensioners operate by way of oil pressure, but they also incorporate a small, internal spring for mechanical purposes. At low engine speeds, when oil pressure is low, the tensioner's internal spring mechanically moves its piston toward the timing chain guide, reducing chain slack on the chain's exhaust side. As engine speed and oil pressure rise, the spring relaxes and oil pressurizes the tensioner's chamber, hydraulically pushing its piston toward the chain's guide. A check valve ensures the oil doesn't escape prematurely and a release valve lets it out when the tensioner's done, well, tensioning things. Additionally, a ratcheting mechanism and teeth built into the piston ensure that it doesn't retract too far back into its housing and loosen up the chain. Sounds like Honda has it all figured out.The Problem Unfortunately, Honda's internal tensioner spring doesn't always work as you'd expect, and excess tensioner piston travel (more than 0.25-inch) and timing chain slack when oil pressure is low is common-especially while cranking and at low engine speeds when the spring is doing all the work. The results can cause the piston teeth to slam against the tensioner's ratchet, ultimately grinding their tips off, rendering them ineffective. You see, by design, K-series exhaust valves close rapidly. Each time they slam shut, the chain builds slack. And each time they slam shut, the tensioner's piston bashes against its ratcheting mechanism. Aftermarket cams with aggressive profiles and stiffer valve springs only pronounce this. It should be noted that although dealership technicians have reported worn tensioner pistons on otherwise stock engines, it's more likely once camshafts and springs have been swapped. Steeper exhaust closing ramps and stiffer valve springs that close the valves even quicker are to blame. Of course, none of this is good since the ratchet and piston teeth are the only things that prevent the piston from being pushed in too far. All of this can lead to a loose chain, a failed safety mechanism, and engine damage, even on unmodified engines. Worst of all, you'll never know any of this is happening until it's too late since you can't readily monitor the tensioner and, even if you could, all of this happens way to quickly.


Read more: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/htup-1005-honda-k-series-tensioner/#ixzz3XDXDDLp8
Click to expand...
 
Messy said:
Sorry to revive an old topic here but I've got a rattle on cold start up, was pretty convinced it was the chain tensioner until reading this thread. Other than the rattle on cold start up (anywhere between 1-3secs and only on first cold start) no other issues at all. Have posted an article I read about the tensioner below, I'm only a novice on the type r so thoughts and opinions from more experienced and those who have had each issue would be appreciated.
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Hello,

I had the cold start up rattle and fixed it, but I changed the VTC gear, timing chain, timing chain tensioner and chain guides all at the same time. When the car was rattling I had my head under the bonnet when someone else started it and the rattling was very clearly coming from under the cam cover on the intake camshaft, the VTC gear, it didnt come from anywhere else and considering the tensioner is half way down the engine block the two locations cannot be confused. Like the quote you have linked, the VTC also works with oil pressure and will therefore show the same symptoms. I would suggest you do what I did and get your head under the bonnet while someone else starts it and listen for the rattle.

A couple of comments from the mechanic who did the job, who is an ex-Honda mech. He told me the timing chain was tight, the guides were good. He also said that while at Honda, he never changed a single timing chain or tensioner. Take that for what its worth, I noticed a difference between the new and old tensioner in the fact that I could compress the old one with my hand and I couldnt move the new one.

To do either the VTC gear or the tensioner requires the same work, the timing chain case needs to come off the side of the engine (or you could remove the intake camshaft for the VTC gear) so if you are in doubt you could just do them both and it would only cost you about £100 extra.

I did a lot of research before doing this job and all sources pointed to the VTC gear being the problem including people who had the tensioner changed and still had the rattle. The reason I changed all of the parts was because I was paying for the labour of opening up the side of the engine anyways so for the sake of £100-200 I might as well change the timing set too. I cant imagine how annoyed Id be if I didnt and the chain went later causing the job to be done again.

Its hard to tell you what it is without seeing the car so like I said, listen for where the noise is coming from. The VTC gear is located on the drivers side corner of the cam cover towards the front of the engine.
 
Very very interesting, everything you say makes perfect sense and I shall be investigating the issue on my car further now before making any decisions. Thanks for the reply and information, I wish all people I spoke to in the honda scene were as helpful
 
Great thread on the cold start guys. Loads of useful information. Interesting read. I had my chain and tensioner replaced by TGM for the cold start rattle (on my own diagnosis) TGM mentioned to me timing chains don't go, specially at my mileage of 65 000 miles. Few weeks later i experienced the cold start rattle again. That got me puzzled again and there are loads of threads out there but till now i find this one has made allot of sense. Ill have to look into to this job getting done again with the whole lot, giudes, vtc gear and all.
 
Hi,

How much is the vtc gear to buy? I'm looking at getting the timing chain kit from cox motor spares on the links page. I'm having the start up noise and a dip below 1000rpm when i rev.
Has anyone used cox motor spares? I've been quoted £860 by Honda just for timing chain to be replaced I'm based in Manchester.
 
Cox are a trader on here and I've personally used then quiet a bit. Genuine Honda parts and stick delivery.

If you're after a Honda specialist rather main dealer to do the work, then Grinspeed and TDi-North are both local to you and are both top notch.
 
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