3rd gen civic hondamatic gearbox. Help!

[jimbothemagnificent]

Hi chaps,

I realise that this is a shot in the dark, any help and ideas are much welcome!

Today I started the car while the front end was on axle stands, much to my surprise the front wheels started turning with the car in neutral! I assume that this is an indication that the clutch is not disengaging properly. Having read my Haynes manual I am none the wiser, except for their consistent use of 'clutches'. PLURAL.

I am a long way out of my depth with this gearbox. What I really need to know is whether this is a serious problem or not; a sign of imminent failure or just a quirk of the design.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can give!

 

[Loxy]

Neutral is neutral I would have thought? Input shaft turns but no gears are engaged and so the output shaft shouldn't turn. So clutch would have little to do with it.

As with yourself I have scant knowledge of auto boxes, but I'd of thought neutral would be the same. I guess it depends whether it is an auto geared box or a CVT type. If the latter, don't they need the oil topped up for them to function properly?

 

[Norv]

Could you stop the wheels spinning by hand like you can on a manual? It doesn't sound like a normal auto if it only has neutral and not Park. Park essentially locks the box up, so not drive in a standard auto. Though it's in neutral the shafts are still turning so some rotational force gets through. Just the same as in a manual box.

So if all is working okay then it must be some sort of early shiftronic semi auto box wizardry.

 

[cowboy573]

I think Norv is right. I remember having the same thing on a Astra automatic I was stripping to race. The gearbox is not in park, so there is always motion going through the gears. As long as you could stop the turning by holding the wheel then you dont have anything to worry about. Imagine the wheel being on the ground, the friction and weight of the car would stop the wheels rotating.
Its effectively a system that aides the gearbox in pulling the car away from stationary. Otherwise the stress on the box would be too much, and youd be effectivly stalling it all the time. Thats my very limitecd knowledge of auto's used up now.

 

[jimbothemagnificent]

Thanks guys.

Loxy, that occurred to me as well, I will be changing the gearbox fluid at the soonest opportunity.

These are the best descriptions of the hondamatic gearboxes that I have found, there is very little information available:

Honda uses constant-mesh gears laid out like a manual gearbox, in which there is a separate input-shaft gear and output-shaft gear laid out along the length of the shaft, just like it's done in a manual gearbox. Instead of synchromesh units to engage each gear, they have hydraulic multiplate clutches to engage each gear.

The original Hondamatic, like all following Honda automatics, featured sliding gears on parallel axes rather than planetary gears like most other automatic transmissions. The design preserved engine braking by eliminating a sprag between the first and second gears. It also featured a unique shifting action controlled by stator torque rather than traditional hydraulics. The Honda torque converter had a lockup, leading the company to sell the original Hondamatic (which had just two forward gear ratios) as a three-speed. The true three-speed H3 was launched in 1979.

Wizardry is certainly the word! As far as I can understand it, this is a semi-auto three speed with a torque converter lock-up serving as overdrive. :smt104

The selector give these options:
L - I'm assuming that this is first gear/low ratio, I haven't ever used it.
* - (a star symbol) second and third ratios.
OD - overdrive or torque converter lock-up.
N - I had assumed this was neutral!
P - Park.

 

[jimbothemagnificent]

Yes, I stopped the wheel with my foot, very gingerly I might add!

So you guys don't think that it's burning through one of it's clutches?

 

[Norv]

Yeah I think you've Sussed it. Very early adaption of the DSG sort of transmission. Either way, if it was in neutral it wouldn't be locked up. Input torque will be transmitted by the bearings and meshing of gears and turn the wheels very slowly at a gentle torque. So all sounds good mate. Nothing to worry about!

 

[jimbothemagnificent]

Excellent! That's a great weight off my mind.

I'm not one usually given to panic, but that REALLY surprised me, and I spent most of the day with horrible visions of part sourcing and giant garage bills.....

 

[Norv]

Could be worse. Though I did similar today, Mrs a4 broke down in worst possible place. Wouldn't start after being stuck in a queue for ages and flicked it off while not moving. Made a nasty clunk and just turning over!

Yes that's the lion enclosure at long leat! Delayed a lot of people and had to be towed out while they performed a box in type manoeuvre often seen on us copy shows!

Turned out to just be flooded from all the crawling around and started up after being towed to a safe car park! Haha.

Made the day quite interesting though!

 

[jimbothemagnificent]

That is absolutely superb! Well, in hindsight certainly....

Of all the dangers we think of when dealing with a broken down car, generally LIONS are not one of them. That made my day.

 

[Norv]

Yeah was interesting! With a 5 month old who proceeded to initiate poomagedden at the perfect moment! Lots of cars going by looking annoyed at the length of the queue staring at me with poo all over my hands grasping a wet wipe! Haha.

Story for Evelyn when she is older though I guess.

 

[jimbothemagnificent]

Oh indeed. In fact, that's a story to save for her WEDDING.

 

[Norv]

Certainly couldn't make it up! Still smiling now. My Mrs had a moment of panic, then she found the funny side!