Weird Engine Noise - Totally Baffled - Please Help!

[jaynaz]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post in awhile but would like to say that I have found this forum exceptionally helpful over the years and generally anything I have ever needed advice wise I have been able to get from here so I do apologize if I haven't posted enough as normally I don't think I have ever had any good advice to contribute!

Anyways, I am currently facing what has become a complete mystery to me - a rattle/grinding noise from the engine of my CTR EP3 when starting up for the first time or from cold. This is my 4th Type R (3rd EP3 - I do love them!) and this is the first time I have ever experienced this.

Here is a link so that rather than try to describe it, you guys are able to hear the noise -

http://youtu.be/v20nocoVG9g

It is a youtube video that shows the noise.

Some background on the car - 2004 (54) Civic Type R, 92k miles and full Honda service history and 2 previous owners.

On a long journey recently covering around 280 miles while going at 70mph and 3.5k rpm the timing chain snapped. Now generally, this would be catastrophic for most engines but once I had the car recovered to my mechanic who inspected the damage caused found that the pistons and the valves were NOT damaged - a miracle I know. Anyways, I had the engine re-built decided to get a few new parts in there including a new timing chain, guides all OEM from Honda as well as other parts besides.

Now, the engine was put back together and the car came back to life BUT that noise stilled remained - please note it also made this noise before the chain snapped and it isn't regular its intermittent. So my mechanic after doing inspections and testing concluded that its possibly to do with the oil pump not supplying enough pressure on start up etc. So had the oil pump changed and new one fitted today as a matter of fact. After getting home and the car had been cooling for around 2-3 hrs it still makes the noise but less pronounced and for a much shorter period and disappears - will try again in morning.

My question to the community is has anyone ever experienced this or knows what the problem is and if so what needs fixing? I am at my wits end and cannot fathom what is doing this. I have checked a lot of threads/posts on here relating to timing chain/tensioner etc and possible oil issues but no one seems to describe the issue I am having and it has already had new timing chain etc fitted. I have thought about Honda but I doubt they will know what is going on judging by the many comments and threads I have read on here and other sites.

I apologize in advance if this has been answered somewhere which means I haven't looked hard enough! I am very stressed with this as I don't know if I am damaging the car more???

If the community can offer any help or advice what so ever I would be in your debt!

 

[grumpyg1t]

Hello, can't say I've experienced anything like that noise. It certainly doesn't sound like the "common" starter noise that you can get during cold months but guess you would know that anyway after owning a few.

Just a silly thought to rule out the starter completely, is it safe to jump start an EP3? as if so, you could try jump starting to see if the noise still happens.
Presumably that would rule out the starter completely?

 

[Loxy]

Did you change the timing chain tensioner when you did the chains and guides? Full oil change with the rebuild with a decent fully synthetic oil?

Like your mech said, it does sound like a low oil pressure issue when the engine first starts. Obviously you have zero pressure on start up but it should get up a bit when the engine has turned a couple of times, usually on cranking.

Did you change the oil pump chain and guides with the pump? Just an idea, if it's slack it could cause very low pressure for a couple of seconds on start up.

 

[jaynaz]

thanks for the reply guys -

grumpyg1t - im not sure about the jump start but should think that its ok to jump the EP3 as with other cars;

Loxy - yes the whole thing was changed with regards to the guides and tensioner and a full oil change was done with good fully synthetic oil. I don't believe the oil pump chain or guide was changed. When the oil pump itself was changed yesterday (I was there the whole time he was working on it) I checked the chain and guide especially for the oil pump section as we only had that part of the engine taken off on the bottom i.e. the sump. The chain was tight and firm so from that I can only say it is fine. One thing I did notice is that when the old pump was in during the engine cranking the oil light would take a few seconds to disappear and since the new pump has been fitted the oil light disappears while the engine is still cranking. It only seems to happen when the engine is cold or on a first start up when left over night and then the rest of the day its fine . It also doesn't do it on all start ups. For example t might do it today (haven't started the car yet) and then perhaps the next two days it may not do it again. It is really odd and I don't know what to do with it.

 

[Loxy]

It could be a multitude of things then fella. Your oil pressure is fine then according to what you've said about the light.

It could be the oil channel to the tensioner has some crud in it that's intermittently lowering the pressure to the tensioner. It's showing up on start when the pressure is lower anyway and the oil has drained into the sump.

It could be something in the head that's not quite in place/bent/loose following the chain going and it's rattling about before the oil gets up there from the sump.

For what it's worth that's nothing like the starter motor/flywheel noise.

The only issue with bump starting it is the cat will get full of un burnt fuel and can burn the cat out if you do it too often.

 

[grumpyg1t]

That's a good point re oil light. Does it also disappear immediately when the noise happens? If it's an intermittent problem and is linked to intermittent low oil pressure, then you may notice that the time taken for the light to go out increases in relation to when the fault occurs?

 

[jaynaz]

thanks for the comments so far guys

s1mmo - sorry to hear you have the same problem mate

would be good to share what research you have done and what information you have gathered so far? I have been doing a lot as well and on another forum some are suggesting the LMA - Loss Motion Assembly or bearing on the distributor but I am not sure what these are exactly and whether they are applicable to K series engines as these threads refer to if I remember a B18 or B16 engine however they talk about the exact same thing

how long has yours been doing this for?

mine seems to be intermittent and over the last couple of days the noise has been more like a 1-2 second rumble/rattle/growl its got a much deeper pitch than what is in the video

 

[jaynaz]

what do you think about the LMA and distributor bearings? have you come across any of this in your research?

 

[jaynaz]

my mechanic had thought it was oil related and I had the oil pump replaced - which would make logical sense as it appears to happen when cold etc but obviously its not that either

I have had new chain, guides and tensioner on as well so cannot be that

I am also thinking is it something in the cylinder head but where the cog spins or something but I'm probably chatting nonsense

 

[jaynaz]

I am going to speak with my mechanic and look into this LMA thing a bit more as I am running out of ideas to be honest and if Honda are telling you they have no idea then its anyone's guess really

Mine had started to do this before the chain snapped about a month ago as well

 

[paolothesum]

Hope you get it sorted buddy. I bet a lot of people are putting up with this noise. I've personally ran out of money so I can't try anything else lol.

Mine also did this this morning sure its the starter sticking , only when cold and intermittent I hope

 

[cowboy573]

I'm going to say Starter motor. It sound very much like my old mondeo did when that started to go. Surley it's worth just getting another starter motor and trying it out, even if you just borrow one from a mates car. It's not that big a deal to change. An hour tops. And it will either rule out or confirm the problem.
Another long long shot is, have you checked your earth? It could be a bad earth struggling to make contact, therfore not increasing the oil pressure enough on start up.

 

[jaynaz]

Thanks for the post so far guys.

Apologies for not coming on here to provide an update sooner.

Ok this may be a slightly long post but I hope this provides some answers to anyone it helps.

Following on from the engine rebuild I had recently after a snapped chain - which I have no idea what caused this and still remains a mystery I believe I have found what is the cause of this cold rattle/grinding noise. Before I advise what I think it is below is a check list of the things I DON'T think is the cause as mentioned in this thread and other threads on this forum and others.

a) Starter Motor - this would make a short burst heavier grinding noise and there would be issues when the car starts such as hesitation and longer cranking;
b) Timing Chain & Tensioner - generally the first place to check but from extensive research these have been replaced on a lot of other cars and the noise still persists - my own car has had extensive works carried out with the complete timing chain and tensioner and guides being replaced and the noise is still there;
b.i) best way to check the timing chain from what I have gathered is to manually crank the drive belts and inspect the movement of the chain - if its skips or bounces as the teath turn then inspection should be done on the guides and tensioner;
c) Water Pump - s1mmon has already had this done and the noise is still there. I am surprised that Honda have done this as if it was the pump there may have been signs of leakage or engine getting hotter than usual or excessive loss of coolants etc;
d) Oil Pump - I had this replaced with a brand new one from Honda literally a week ago and the problem persists even if there is slightly better pressure - upon inspection of the old one there dint seem to be nothing wrong - but at that point I was looking to eliminate issues.

As I have mentioned after countless hours of research and watching loads of youtube videos on Honda Type R with the K series engine and also other honda's I have narrowed the problem down to the VTC Sprocket/Actuator which runs the camshaft. This is activated by oil pressure and and is allows oil to be provided to the valves in a advanced/retarded motion.

The reason this would rattle on a cold start is that the locking pin which secures the VTC sprocket is broken and when the engine starts and while the oil gets to it it will be moving freely in a back and forward motion (it looks like a star inside another star shape hence the rattle) until it fills with oil which is why the noise goes away once then engine is warm and nicely lubricated with oil. The only cure for a faulty one is to replace this with another one.

I have downloaded and looked through the Honda service manual and to do a replacement requires a bit of work.

These parts are not cheap from Honda - around £200 or so for a new Actuator Assembly (VTC).

I hope this helps - I will be looking to get this done in the next week so will report back if this has cured the problem. I hope this is right as I cannot think on what else it can possibly be but everything is pointing towards this now.

 

[jaynaz]

Excellent Jaynaz, thanks for the update. I've been checking this thread everyday hoping for an update lol. I have no idea on mechanics but if the VTC fails will the engine go bang ? I'm just worried about how long my car will last with this noise

Hope it doesn't involve lots of labour costs replacing the part

Thanks again buddy, you've been a great help. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

No problem mate. I have just ordered the parts required and its not a massive job to be honest. Technically the VTC has already failed as this controls the gears on the camshaft and regulates how the oil is delivered into the valves/pistons etc hence the rattling as the pin is most likely broken inside and is not locked in which should disengage when the oil reaches it.

I don't think the car will go bang or anything as in my case I think the chain snapped possibly due to not being checked or replaced and as my car has 92k it was due a check anyway - I just got unlucky. While you wait for yours to get fixed just drive it if you really have to and to be on the safe side don't VTEC the car or anything.

If you order the part from Honda it will be pricey your best bet will be to have a look on eBay or source the camshafts with the drive gears already attached from a salvage/breaking yard for a lot less. Also get the work done by a specialist as labour costs will be a lot less.

Hope I have helped.

Will report back towards the end of next week when the work should have been done and let you know if the 'rattle' has gone!

 

[jaynaz]

Starting to get nervous Jaynaz lol, hope you have yours fixed now!

Sorry haven't posted an update sooner. I have had to wait for some parts to be delivered as I am getting a couple of other things done while I am at it. I have got my camshafts/cam gears etc which is the main parts to change and all the work is booked in with my mechanic for Tuesday.

Will hopefully be in a position to let you know either late Tuesday or more likely Wednesday after the car has been left to sit over night.

 

[jaynaz]

Cool nice one, hopefully when your mechanic is fitting the parts he should find what's broken and causing the noise so we know which is the golden part needed

Best of luck buddy! I'll check back next week

UPDATE

My mechanic finally did the work on the car today. First few things I noticed was the camshafts/gears that were replaced appear to be DC5 camshafts as they were stamped RBC which are standard I think on the Integra DC5's? Anyways, so the new ones were installed took most of the day as the car was re-timed, checks made to the chain and other areas etc. Upon its first start as I also had an oil change with the old oil entirely drained out (the new oil is Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 on special from Opie's) there was the faintest of rattle if that's what is can be called sounded more like a little grunt? This is very important for me anyways because before the camshafts were changed I had the oil pump changed and the oil was drained out then as well and upon a cold fresh start it made the rattling noise as in the video but it lasted at least 15-20 seconds so already there is an noticeable difference. The only test now and to ensure this has been the cure is for a cold start in the morning as temperatures seem to have got quite chilly here in Essex.

I will post a picture of the parts that were replaced for your benefit s1mmo so you know exactly what you need and I will record a video in the morning with my own start and post it here as well to see if the rattle has been cured.

Ok will post back tomorrow! Fingers crossed!

 

[jaynaz]

I can happily confirm that the cold start rattle has completely gone. I started the car around 8.30AM with the temperatures around 8C which is cold enough and the car would have been sat for over 10 hours and it started no problem and the most crucial thing - NO NOISE! So I am very happy that I was able to determine the fault and have this fixed. I hope this has helped and for anyone else who experiences this problem again in the future.

 

[jaynaz]

Well I'm going to start it later on at which point the car will have been stood for over 6 hours and will post a video on here as I forgot to do this in the morning. I got a set of cams and gears for £70 off eBay from a breakers who just dismantled a Premier Ep3 - you don't need a separate VTC actuator as its inside one of the gears (see pic below - the VTC assembly is the 'fat' cog/sprocket/gear) - actually how do you upload a picture from hard drive on here?

If you buy the parts from Honda i.e. just the VTC assembly itself which is a gear its like £200! Have a look around a number of breaker yards etc there are bound to be some cheap ones just make sure they out of a low mileage car. In terms of getting the work done if you leave not far from Hatfield or the Hertfordshire area I could get you in touch with my mechanic who could do it for you and it would cost you as much as what Honda or any other garage might charge for it??? But have a look around at prices and possible labour costs as its quite an involved job and requires access to the cam chain to be removed and re-timed to ensure its done properly.

Let me know if I can help.

 

[jaynaz]

Thanks Jaynaz, you can PM me if you don't want to say here but how much in total did you pay ? I may have to save up before I go with this fix lol

I take it I need the below ? I'm sure I can find it cheaper though lol.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Civic-Typ...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a85e5df58

So glad you got it sorted mate!

Sorry for the late reply!

That is a little steep to be honest as I got mine from eBay for £70 including delivery.

I paid my mechanic £300 but that also included the exhaust system that was installed and a few other things. On the original engine rebuild which also included a port & polish tune up he charged me £300 and £650 for the parts required for the rebuild.

I think if you get a few quotes you may be quoted in excess of £500 as the job is involved even though the parts to be changed aren't massively difficult but the engine does need to be re-timed and the chain seated properly etc. which does require dropping the engine off its mounts slightly. My mechanic worked on my car with his brother and it took the best part of a day to do all the work.

Watch out for anyone who says they can just take the rocker cover off and keep tension on the chain and angle the camshaft off - that just sounds like a dodgy job and I have read a few forums where people have taken that risk to do this type of work.

Hope this helps mate and really hope you get yours solved. One thing you really need to be careful of is the more you drive it the more the chain will stretch as the VTC will not be working very well even if you can't here the rattle. I know this as my new chain had slightly stretched as a result during the wait for parts and installation. So just be careful.

Really hope you get it sorted. :lol:

Good luck.:smt023