IPS K2's and ITB's make poor figures?...Please comment Ron

[HASNIC]

Good post paul, is interesting seeing some other applications of parts used here to compare results.

 

[CTR]

Gonna be interesting to see what the Toda ITB's are like when they finally finish developing them.

 

[The Keiser]

I found this most interesting

Well, the results were disappointing, I'll let the graphs speak for themselves.

Green line: Baseline - DC CAI, DCRH, Exhaust, Stock PRB Manifold, K-pro (not tuned on my car but tuned on another car with the exact mods)

Red Line: After K2s - IPS K2 Camshafts, Eibach EVS w/ Ti Retainers, DC CAI, DCRH, Exhaust, Stock PRB Manifold, K-pro (tuned by Thomas at church automotive)

Blue Line (was originally printed in yellow, but you couldn't see it, so I traced over it with a blue pen): After ITBS - IPS K2 Camshafts, Eibach EVS w/ Ti Retainers, Hayward 48mm ITB's, DCRH, Exhaust, K-pro (tuned by Doug Macmillan of Hondata on the same dyno)

The dynos were all performed on different days, but on the same machine. In conclusion, the 48mm ITB's made LESS power than the STOCK PRB manifold. If the original had been made with the PRC manifold, the power difference would have been even greater.

Doug believes the 48mm throttle bodies are simply too small for the application. As far as I know, this is 1 of only 2 sets of 48mm Hayward K20 ITBs in existence.

I am working with Lance Hayward (who is AWESOME by the way) on getting the setup "upgraded" to 52mm throttle bodies, those results should be up within the next month or so.

In conclusion, I would not recommend anyone go with anything less than 52mm for these motors.

I reckon he'll easily see another 15bhp with 52mm TB's which begs the question.... why so different on this side of the channel? :?:

Yip, definetly does beg the question :wink:

 

[CTR]

I reckon he'll easily see another 15bhp with 52mm TB's which begs the question.... why so different on this side of the channel? :?:

I think it may have something to do with the quality of fuel in the States. Theirs is really poor IIRC and their octane level is nowhere near what our is. Yes they do get Super juice but it's not as readily available there as it is here. I think that's why Subaru made the 2.5 block for that states to ensure that their US cars made the power they required.

 

[CTR_Paul]

I reckon he'll easily see another 15bhp with 52mm TB's which begs the question.... why so different on this side of the channel? :?:

I think it may have something to do with the quality of fuel in the States. Theirs is really poor IIRC and their octane level is nowhere near what our is. Yes they do get Super juice but it's not as readily available there as it is here. I think that's why Subaru made the 2.5 block for that states to ensure that their US cars made the power they required.

They get 95 RON over there they just use a different measureing system, an average of RON and PON which is called MON IIRC. Not sure if they get a 98 RON equivilent though.

And the question is why did Keisers car make 208wbhp when the US guys are making 230wbhp with cams, and will probably make nearer 250wbhp with larger ITB's... something doesn't add up.

 

[Chris.]

Is that measurment in the graphs taken at the wheel?

EDIT

Just seen. It must be :roll: :lol:

 

[edo]

Here is the most recent dyno after opening up the throttle blades all the way and giving the car to Doug for a week and a half. I'm sorry I don't have a single dyno comparing all the runs, maybe I can get that eventually.

Much better this time around. Still not the numbers I had hoped for, but at least it out-performed the stock PRB manifold.

You may notice the HP peak is at a much higher RPM than the other dynos, 8913, but even at 8500ish it is still at 240.

I'm still planning on upgrading to the 52mm's and getting a bigger exhaust.

 

[CTR_Paul]

I wonder what it'll do with 52mm TB's Ron

Doug obviously just needed some time to tune it properly. 8)

 

[The Keiser]

I reckon he'll easily see another 15bhp with 52mm TB's which begs the question.... why so different on this side of the channel? :?:

I think it may have something to do with the quality of fuel in the States. Theirs is really poor IIRC and their octane level is nowhere near what our is. Yes they do get Super juice but it's not as readily available there as it is here. I think that's why Subaru made the 2.5 block for that states to ensure that their US cars made the power they required.

They get 95 RON over there they just use a different measureing system, an average of RON and PON which is called MON IIRC. Not sure if they get a 98 RON equivilent though.

And the question is why did Keisers car make 208wbhp when the US guys are making 230wbhp with cams, and will probably make nearer 250wbhp with larger ITB's... something doesn't add up.

Again it's comparing dyno's which have no equal comparison. It's the dyno's not the car that is proving to cause the stir, the car is quick, that I'm confident of.

 

[Awesam]

Keiser

Why not get your car tested on another dyno?

Probably shut most ppl up why u only made 208ATW!

 

[The Keiser]

Keiser

Why not get your car tested on another dyno?

Probably shut most ppl up why u only made 208ATW!

I'll wait until Santa Pod mate. Putting it on another dyno will no doubt prove to be irrelevant as well mate due to different time, different dyno, different fan, air temp/charge temp and ultimetly sofdtware.

I know CPL extended this to TP as well but was declined. I think the 1/4 and I'll maybe do some data logging with Guy for personal smug reasons, will be the best way ahead.

 

[tp]

I reckon he'll easily see another 15bhp with 52mm TB's which begs the question.... why so different on this side of the channel? :?:

I think it may have something to do with the quality of fuel in the States. Theirs is really poor IIRC and their octane level is nowhere near what our is. Yes they do get Super juice but it's not as readily available there as it is here. I think that's why Subaru made the 2.5 block for that states to ensure that their US cars made the power they required.

They get 95 RON over there they just use a different measureing system, an average of RON and PON which is called MON IIRC. Not sure if they get a 98 RON equivilent though.

And the question is why did Keisers car make 208wbhp when the US guys are making 230wbhp with cams, and will probably make nearer 250wbhp with larger ITB's... something doesn't add up.

Again it's comparing dyno's which have no equal comparison. It's the dyno's not the car that is proving to cause the stir, the car is quick, that I'm confident of.

If you have a look at the graphs shown above both by CTR_Paul and later by Ron you will see that they are all infact done on the same dyno. :wink:
Also possibly the best Hondata K20 tuners in the world have been working on it.
Look at the curves not the numbers to compare. :wink:

- Thanks Ron for posting the update 8)

What it clearly shows is that below 5000rpm you are actually loosing power due to the ITB's.
It does make a gain at peak of 10bhp but this still isn't quite what I would be after for the investment just yet.

I think what this is showing is that good tuning is the key. Your car is only the 3rd in the UK to have ITB's fitted that I know of on a K20A/CTR. The Americans are way ahead of us with regards to tuning and experience...and remember they are using a car with more clearance between the block and slam panel so can get better airflow in.

It will be interesting to see how the IPS big TB compares to ITB's.

 

[dotty]

I was speaking to zippo on the phone the other day and he said he went in a CTR with a stroker kit fitted and it was..... :twisted:

 

[lecurie]

I was speaking to zippo on the phone the other day and he said he went in a CTR with a stroker kit fitted and it was..... :twisted:

pauls from tdi north has a stroker kit in it

 

[CTR]

I was speaking to zippo on the phone the other day and he said he went in a CTR with a stroker kit fitted and it was..... :twisted:

Planning this mod in the future if all goes to plan.

Also gonna get Paul to take me out in his car (he has no choice, he IS taking me out :twisted: ) when I go up to System-R on the 20th.

 

[The Keiser]

I reckon he'll easily see another 15bhp with 52mm TB's which begs the question.... why so different on this side of the channel? :?:

I think it may have something to do with the quality of fuel in the States. Theirs is really poor IIRC and their octane level is nowhere near what our is. Yes they do get Super juice but it's not as readily available there as it is here. I think that's why Subaru made the 2.5 block for that states to ensure that their US cars made the power they required.

They get 95 RON over there they just use a different measureing system, an average of RON and PON which is called MON IIRC. Not sure if they get a 98 RON equivilent though.

And the question is why did Keisers car make 208wbhp when the US guys are making 230wbhp with cams, and will probably make nearer 250wbhp with larger ITB's... something doesn't add up.

Again it's comparing dyno's which have no equal comparison. It's the dyno's not the car that is proving to cause the stir, the car is quick, that I'm confident of.

If you have a look at the graphs shown above both by CTR_Paul and later by Ron you will see that they are all infact done on the same dyno. :wink:
Also possibly the best Hondata K20 tuners in the world have been working on it.
Look at the curves not the numbers to compare. :wink:

- Thanks Ron for posting the update 8)

What it clearly shows is that below 5000rpm you are actually loosing power due to the ITB's.
It does make a gain at peak of 10bhp but this still isn't quite what I would be after for the investment just yet.

I think what this is showing is that good tuning is the key. Your car is only the 3rd in the UK to have ITB's fitted that I know of on a K20A/CTR. The Americans are way ahead of us with regards to tuning and experience...and remember they are using a car with more clearance between the block and slam panel so can get better airflow in.

It will be interesting to see how the IPS big TB compares to ITB's.

Ye, I know they are on the same dyno mate, just saying it wouldn't be worth while me putting my car on another dyno here as it proves nothing.