IPS K2's and ITB's make poor figures?...Please comment Ron
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moNoKnoT said:
:smt099
You clearly didn't read my 1st post or understand the point that I was trying to make that kicked it all off did you. :roll:
For those that cannot understand what I was trying to say with the aid of pretty pictures:
IPS K2 is better than Toda A2/N2 FACT
The gain between the 2 cams is between 10-20bhp again FACT
Toda A2's made 200bhp @ wheels last year on the CPL dyno FACT
Therefore we should be expecting to see a figure about 10bhp up on Saxo92's 200bhp@wheels on the CPL dyno.....remember this is with cams alone. :wink: Are we still following? :lol:
Right...As Tart kindly reminds us there is or seems to be a difference between the CPL dyno and everyone else by about 15bhp.
even with this a car equiped with K2's should be making between 205 and 215 on the dyno if previous results as shown on Saxo92's car and back to back tests with Toda A2/N2 and IPS K2's are to be beleived.
This therefore gives the result as shown on keisers car as would be expected with cams alone.
BUT ITB's are also fitted. And as pointed out in the CPL website the fitting of ITB's alone give a "solid" 20bhp gain.
Maybe its just me but the results clearly show that ITB's have made absolutley zero benefit. :wink: Hence making an educated presentation of the facts available to all which resulted from a question originally posed by Sara.
Then everyone jumps in and accuses me of a personal vendetta. :roll
Get a grip people. :lol:
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Sara said:Right....so im to blame then...sorry guys.Im obviously incapable of speaking to tuners and making my own mind up as well... :roll:
Yup. Totally. :lol: :smt075 :wink:
moNoKnoT said:Glad you cleared that up then
You should started the topic with that post instead of the short and sweet "down on power explain" comments.
- Kevin.
Sorry.
I assumed everyone was following the original post I made but have now added that on the first post to tie it all together. :wink:
G
A veritable chap
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I remember running TB's on my 205 (Webers), TBH I never would run them again there just seems to me at least to be mutch better and more efficient ways of tuning a modern engine.
I was forever having to get the blimming things adjusted, and low down the car (specially with the cams I was running, Piper), was sooo lumpy.
Mind you when going sounded mental.
Having said that maybe a modern engine running newer ITB's and set well will be better than I remember.
And at the end of the day I guess once Kieser has them fitted as long as he is happy and feels the gains then that is all that matters
I was forever having to get the blimming things adjusted, and low down the car (specially with the cams I was running, Piper), was sooo lumpy.
Mind you when going sounded mental.
Having said that maybe a modern engine running newer ITB's and set well will be better than I remember.
And at the end of the day I guess once Kieser has them fitted as long as he is happy and feels the gains then that is all that matters
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Ok, been away for a couple of days so that should put to rest your comment about me not posting !
I have picked my car up from CPL and complated a whole 500 miles back hope and to be honest it is a very quick, caplable car. Now these comments don't come lightly &^ am not a novice with tuned/fast cars coming from a host of background projects completed on a Jordan, Evo and now my EP3.
The only issue I feel is grip, as the power is just so difficult to get down in the first three gears.
The ITB's are great , not for the faint heartyed if you are after luxury easy drive type cars but to me, if you want that buy a beemer !
Going back to your dyno comments TP, you said a dynopack is the holy grail, however I have spoke to a number of tuners, mostly friends and am not talking about Guy, who have tested cars with back to back runs showing different figures without changing any items and it's still felt for tuning purposes the Dyno Dynamics is the optimum tuning tool. If I were to go back to CPL, I would almost guarantee the car would be within tolerance levels of the existing BHP figure.
Guy has put a lot of time & effort in to my car and being honest I am really, really happy with the car a part from my head feeling like I've been in a night club all night "just being back".
All in all, the car is running well, MPG is still pretty good & is very, very quick with a great sound to boot !
As I say, to match 1/4 mile tiumes that you posted TP, I will require an LSD without doubt, the car is just far too lively, especially on VTEC :twisted:
I would still urge you to put your car on the CPL dyno, unless you have anything to hide :wink: :?:
I see Guy as a top tuner & feel there are too many comments on this forum either doubting him or rideculing him, unfairly & without proof :evil:
I have picked my car up from CPL and complated a whole 500 miles back hope and to be honest it is a very quick, caplable car. Now these comments don't come lightly &^ am not a novice with tuned/fast cars coming from a host of background projects completed on a Jordan, Evo and now my EP3.
The only issue I feel is grip, as the power is just so difficult to get down in the first three gears.
The ITB's are great , not for the faint heartyed if you are after luxury easy drive type cars but to me, if you want that buy a beemer !
Going back to your dyno comments TP, you said a dynopack is the holy grail, however I have spoke to a number of tuners, mostly friends and am not talking about Guy, who have tested cars with back to back runs showing different figures without changing any items and it's still felt for tuning purposes the Dyno Dynamics is the optimum tuning tool. If I were to go back to CPL, I would almost guarantee the car would be within tolerance levels of the existing BHP figure.
Guy has put a lot of time & effort in to my car and being honest I am really, really happy with the car a part from my head feeling like I've been in a night club all night "just being back".
All in all, the car is running well, MPG is still pretty good & is very, very quick with a great sound to boot !
As I say, to match 1/4 mile tiumes that you posted TP, I will require an LSD without doubt, the car is just far too lively, especially on VTEC :twisted:
I would still urge you to put your car on the CPL dyno, unless you have anything to hide :wink: :?:
I see Guy as a top tuner & feel there are too many comments on this forum either doubting him or rideculing him, unfairly & without proof :evil:
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tp said:
Why would Guy/Ron get involved ?
For one, Guy put a lot of effort in to getting the ITB's working well plus they are IPS in one way or another so why share their development work to the public ?
G
A veritable chap
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At the end of the day Keiser all that really matters is how the car feels on the road to you. If you feel the improvement, and makes the grin on your face that mutch wider. Then surely that is more important than any quantifiable results on a RR. And it certainly sounds like you have a fun ride there .
I do wonder at the trouble you are having getting power down in the first three gears though. I only ever seem to loose traction if I really try and it is damp. But generally I have no such issues. If you do not mind me asking what tyres are you running and what if any Chassis mods have you done?
.I do wonder at the trouble you are having getting power down in the first three gears though. I only ever seem to loose traction if I really try and it is damp. But generally I have no such issues. If you do not mind me asking what tyres are you running and what if any Chassis mods have you done?
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G said:At the end of the day Keiser all that really matters is how the car feels on the road to you. If you feel the improvement, and makes the grin on your face that mutch wider. Then surely that is more important than any quantifiable results on a RR. And it certainly sounds like you have a fun ride there
I do wonder at the trouble you are having getting power down in the first three gears though. I only ever seem to loose traction if I really try and it is damp. But generally I have no such issues. If you do not mind me asking what tyres are you running and what if any Chassis mods have you done?
I have put Teins on with a J's strut brace only on the front just now. I the Potenzas are still on just now & I think they have an awful lot to do with it
Scousefella
Mental for Oriental
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Video clips would be nice - those ITB's need to be forum friendly. :twisted:
What an interesting little read.
I think some of you are presuming that TP is taking a snipe at Guy. Ok so the presentation of the information could be percieved like that, but I think we all know the question he's really asking. Why did Keisers car only make 207wbhp.
I thought it was low when I first read it, not low compared to my car (which was measured on a different Dyno and thus is irrelevent) but compared to the other cars that have being on CPL's dyno.
Taking Monoknots as an example if I may:
K-Pro
AEM
Spoon B-Pipe
Result on the CPL Dyno in RR Shootout mode: 176wbhp (That's 16wbhp up on Scousefella's stock CTR)
Naturally a more free flowing backbox & a race manifold would see this jump by 15wbhp or so, as has being proven by everyman and his dog (both sides of the Atlantic).
Not only that but one of my mates CTR's made just under 190wbhp on the CPL Dyno with AEM, K-Pro, JRRH & some exhaust or other.
That'd put the Cam's AND ITB's combined making about 15/20wbhp between them.
To me that seems low, and unlike a good few people on these UK honda forums I'm a pretty avid reader of Club RSX, afterall they use the same K20A2 engine. The results they get with ITB's are nothing like 207wbhp, nothing at all. The IPS cams are proven in the US too. Something is a miss somewhere...
So, ITB's, Cams and all sorts are making 47wbhp up on a stock car and 30wbhp up on a car which still has a stock manifold and backbox....
The question here isn't about the Dyno at CPL, it's about those ITB's and if they work, hence using all CPL tested cars in my example above. I have nothign against Guy or CPL, hell I like CPL ! They sent me a T-Shirt ! 8)
Kieser if you'd be so kind to settle this:
- Switch on the Datalog function in K-Pro
- Hit the Record function
- Find an empty (dry) bit of tarmac, straight etc etc.
- pop it in 3rd gear, hold it at 60mph (that's about 58mph indicated),
- Then nail it to about an indicated 110mph a few times (naturally you'll have to change to 4th).
- Hit the save button
That'll give a decent indication of how quick it is. Unlike these poxy 1/4 mile times it doesn't matter if you're tyres are shit, what you've had done to the drivetrain or you can't launch the car, it's a far more accurate measure of real world speed. I'm sure people will claim that K-Pro isn't accurate, except Guy has proven that it is on his 1/4m runs, and it's that 0-60 part of the timing that has inaccuracy, not 60-100 when you have traction. Hell, time it on a stopwatch too, a pie and pint says they'll be virtually identical. 8)
I think some of you are presuming that TP is taking a snipe at Guy. Ok so the presentation of the information could be percieved like that, but I think we all know the question he's really asking. Why did Keisers car only make 207wbhp.
I thought it was low when I first read it, not low compared to my car (which was measured on a different Dyno and thus is irrelevent) but compared to the other cars that have being on CPL's dyno.
Taking Monoknots as an example if I may:
K-Pro
AEM
Spoon B-Pipe
Result on the CPL Dyno in RR Shootout mode: 176wbhp (That's 16wbhp up on Scousefella's stock CTR)
Naturally a more free flowing backbox & a race manifold would see this jump by 15wbhp or so, as has being proven by everyman and his dog (both sides of the Atlantic).
Not only that but one of my mates CTR's made just under 190wbhp on the CPL Dyno with AEM, K-Pro, JRRH & some exhaust or other.
That'd put the Cam's AND ITB's combined making about 15/20wbhp between them.
To me that seems low, and unlike a good few people on these UK honda forums I'm a pretty avid reader of Club RSX, afterall they use the same K20A2 engine. The results they get with ITB's are nothing like 207wbhp, nothing at all. The IPS cams are proven in the US too. Something is a miss somewhere...
So, ITB's, Cams and all sorts are making 47wbhp up on a stock car and 30wbhp up on a car which still has a stock manifold and backbox....
The question here isn't about the Dyno at CPL, it's about those ITB's and if they work, hence using all CPL tested cars in my example above. I have nothign against Guy or CPL, hell I like CPL ! They sent me a T-Shirt ! 8)
Kieser if you'd be so kind to settle this:
- Switch on the Datalog function in K-Pro
- Hit the Record function
- Find an empty (dry) bit of tarmac, straight etc etc.
- pop it in 3rd gear, hold it at 60mph (that's about 58mph indicated),
- Then nail it to about an indicated 110mph a few times (naturally you'll have to change to 4th).
- Hit the save button
That'll give a decent indication of how quick it is. Unlike these poxy 1/4 mile times it doesn't matter if you're tyres are shit, what you've had done to the drivetrain or you can't launch the car, it's a far more accurate measure of real world speed. I'm sure people will claim that K-Pro isn't accurate, except Guy has proven that it is on his 1/4m runs, and it's that 0-60 part of the timing that has inaccuracy, not 60-100 when you have traction. Hell, time it on a stopwatch too, a pie and pint says they'll be virtually identical. 8)
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Glad to hear its going OK.
Whats it like at low speeds in traffic?
Regarding the dyno let me just say that if it was any dyno in the country that had already posted a 200@wheels with lesser cams and had carried out a project like yours I would have questioned it. I never meant to single out CPL even though people like Tarticus would try to make you believe otherwise. I hope you can understand where I was coming from when pointing out far superior cams, plus ITB's "SHOULD" be making far more than 7bhp. :?
I asked Ron to comment as he was involved right from the start with this setup so was hoping he had something to compare it with. I had been involved in testing the first set of K2's in the UK and they made significantly more power and torque than the Toda's so I know what I'm talking about here. :wink:
Regarding my choice of dyno's I would put my money on a hub dyno being more accurate than any wheel system purely because the depth of tread, inflation and even weight would have no bearing on the results. Likewise the ability to manipulate results by over inflation or strapping loads.
I'm not just looking at Dynapacks I'm also focussing on the Rotatest ones as recently purchased by TDi in Barking.
If your setting up a brand new dyno cell with a £100K+budget, why was a Rota system purchased in preference to a DD? :wink:
As for traction.....It will be the tyres. Them's is crap.
Also get yourself an LSD and at the same time all the motor mounts and even the ES suspension bush kit.
Works a treat.
I find that I can launch even in the wet with virtually no wheel hop with good traction. :wink:
Keep us posted on how you get on. 8)
Whats it like at low speeds in traffic?
Regarding the dyno let me just say that if it was any dyno in the country that had already posted a 200@wheels with lesser cams and had carried out a project like yours I would have questioned it. I never meant to single out CPL even though people like Tarticus would try to make you believe otherwise. I hope you can understand where I was coming from when pointing out far superior cams, plus ITB's "SHOULD" be making far more than 7bhp. :?
I asked Ron to comment as he was involved right from the start with this setup so was hoping he had something to compare it with. I had been involved in testing the first set of K2's in the UK and they made significantly more power and torque than the Toda's so I know what I'm talking about here. :wink:
Regarding my choice of dyno's I would put my money on a hub dyno being more accurate than any wheel system purely because the depth of tread, inflation and even weight would have no bearing on the results. Likewise the ability to manipulate results by over inflation or strapping loads.
I'm not just looking at Dynapacks I'm also focussing on the Rotatest ones as recently purchased by TDi in Barking.
If your setting up a brand new dyno cell with a £100K+budget, why was a Rota system purchased in preference to a DD? :wink:
As for traction.....It will be the tyres. Them's is crap.
Also get yourself an LSD and at the same time all the motor mounts and even the ES suspension bush kit.
Works a treat.
I find that I can launch even in the wet with virtually no wheel hop with good traction. :wink:
Keep us posted on how you get on. 8)
G
A veritable chap
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I know where TP etc is comming from, but at the end of the day, it is Kiesers car and if he says it is quicker than before then he is in the best position to know, the drivers seat. As far as comparing figures from one dyno to another, Paul you know to a certain extent that is irrellevent. The before and after figures of the same car onm the same day are more relevent...but even then there can be anomilies.
Though as a potential customer I can see why TP would like as much info/clarification as possible.
Also if he is having traction issues in 3rd, he must be making a few more bhp's and tawks Notwithstanding the tyre issues.
Which I would recomend changing to Toyos asap....as they made such a difference to mine and even taking into account the different dynos we have run on, I must be making a few more horses.... As far as LSD, that is next on my list as well.
Though as a potential customer I can see why TP would like as much info/clarification as possible.
Also if he is having traction issues in 3rd, he must be making a few more bhp's and tawks
Notwithstanding the tyre issues.Which I would recomend changing to Toyos asap....as they made such a difference to mine and even taking into account the different dynos we have run on, I must be making a few more horses...
. As far as LSD, that is next on my list as well.G said:
Certainly mate, hence the request for a datalog to help put the issue to bed. I did only use CPL figures though
. On personal experience visiting the same dyno over and over again does see fairly similar results if nothing is done to the car, in my profile the 188wbhp and 190wbhp were same dyno, two months apart, same setup (IM was cooled for the later run).Anyhow if Keisers happy than that is all that matters ! On that note....Soundclips sir !! 8)
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I need to get some time to do some sound clips etc and will do it as soon as I can. The car does sound superb :twisted:
As I say, even in third gear when hitting VTEC, the wheelws go bizzerk :twisted:
In slow traffic, the ITB's work a lot better than I could have hoped. I have found that I can lift off totally & the car takes it's self like a stock car would, without stalling !
Sure the driveability is a little comprimised but anyone wanting ITB's and is expecting a stock drive is kidding themselves. I have already got used to the driving style required for the ITB's in taffic & truct me, I hit a fair bit of traffic at 4.30 through until 6pm at around Newcastle.
I will try to get some data logging but before I post anything I will speak to Guy. He has put a hell of a lot of effort in to my car and time so don't want to be posting in fo that could provide information, please don't take that the wrong way but I have to protect Guy as well. :wink:
As I say, even in third gear when hitting VTEC, the wheelws go bizzerk :twisted:
In slow traffic, the ITB's work a lot better than I could have hoped. I have found that I can lift off totally & the car takes it's self like a stock car would, without stalling !
Sure the driveability is a little comprimised but anyone wanting ITB's and is expecting a stock drive is kidding themselves. I have already got used to the driving style required for the ITB's in taffic & truct me, I hit a fair bit of traffic at 4.30 through until 6pm at around Newcastle.
I will try to get some data logging but before I post anything I will speak to Guy. He has put a hell of a lot of effort in to my car and time so don't want to be posting in fo that could provide information, please don't take that the wrong way but I have to protect Guy as well. :wink:
The Keiser said:
Don't worry mate I'm not asking you to post your map (afterall you paid for that, so it's totally understandable you wanting to keep it and guy not wanting to give it away either!). The datalogging function just returns speed, RPM, time, intake temp etc etc, it's just to give some real world evidence of how quick the car is. :wink:
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CTR_Paul said:
no worries, I will get that when I have two secs & some data logging equipemnet which is on it's way to me :wink:
I am really pleased at how hard the car pulls especially after 5k. I've driven a few fast cars & I know this car is fast !
will post some results when I can